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How Much Would You Pay For VLF Type Discrimination At PI Type Depths?


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The "holy grail" of metal detecting has been a detector that can offer VLF type discrimination to PI detector depth. Many years ago I put it as "a White's MXT that can detect as deep as a Minelab GP". I once offered $10,000 for such a detector, back when it seemed ludicrous to think detectors would ever reach such a high price.

We have had a lot of progress in the last 30 years on sheer depth of detection, but really not much at all when it comes to how deep a target can be detected and identified with decent accuracy. When it comes to accurate target id at depth multi frequency units set the standard for performance in all soil types. The Fisher CZ and Minelab Sovereign both came out in 1991, and in my opinion other than refinements nothing has really changed since then when it comes down to the classic question of "how deep can you detect and correctly identify a U.S. dime?" For single frequency detectors my old Compass Gold Scanner Pro back in 1989 punched as deep on a dime as anything made today.

We need some sort of real breakthrough. What this would really mean is a machine that handles and eliminates ground better to deliver depth as close to air tests as is possible while retaining good discrimination.

The long rumored (since 2015) Fisher CZX promises "groundbreaking technology" in the form of a two frequency detector that is "deeper than current VLF, this detector will also see through red dirt, and highly mineralized soil."

For even longer we have known about the White's Half Sine Patent that states "A new hybrid metal detector combines induction balance and pulse induction technologies. Target signals are generated from a transmitted wave that has both induction balance and pulse current inducing characteristics and uses pertinent sampling of the receive data. Combining the two data sources provides eddy current target identification while excluding ground permeability and remanence obscuration."

Now, the Fisher price target was said to be in the $1000 - $2000 range. Frankly, that seems way too low for something that would knock the industry on its ear if it came to pass, but it may be we are all assuming the CZX to be more than it really is. The talk is mainly about being simple and handling bad ground well, but how well it can identify targets at depth is really not discussed. All the CZX may turn out to be is my long hoped for ergonomic detector that outperforms the White's TDI in the $1000 - $2000 price range. The Mosca machine mentioned on the same thread has different engineers involved and so these are probably two separate projects.

aka-intronik-stf-metal-detector.jpg

OK, long lead in to the AKA Intronik STF as described at http://md-hunter.com/aka-intronik-stf-price-starts-from-12000-the-most-expensive-detector/ and said to be selling for $12,000.00. Another thread here states "AKA succeed working out VLF detector working 2 frequency at once. This detector sees no differance if ground is heavely mineralized or it's a non salty sand or even air, it's not being influanced by mineralisation at all. It's deep as Signum MFT but with right identification at any depth." Looks to be translated poorly from original Russian, or at least I hope that's the excuse for the butchered English!

However, what the AKA Intronik is promising is a two frequency machine that ignores ground mineralization, and that sounds a lot like what the Fisher CZX is promising. The White's is a different beast but same basic result being discussed - a breakthrough in the ability to discriminate targets at depth. And in my book all that means is something clearly better than what we have, not results so close that endless videos and arguments on the internet produce no clear winners. We want something that when put up against a Fisher CZ and F75 and Minelab CTX everyone clearly agrees "this thing accurately sees a dime deeper"

Many nugget hunters may be ignoring all this, but the applications for a detector that really can get the depth and identify trash better are huge. In fact, I am willing to bet many of the best finds remaining in the United States at least are in those areas that are full of so much trash that PI operators have barely put a dent in them. Clear open trash free patches have been pounded to death, but there are many places where the volume of deep nails alone continues to defeat even the most patient hunters.

People are/were will to pay $8000 - $10,000 for a GPZ 7000. How much is a GPZ with discrimination worth?

Quite a bit perhaps to many gold hunters. What I wonder however is what the limits are for the coin and relic hunters. My gut feeling was that the coin hunters were not as willing to spend big bucks as the gold hunters. It is easy to rationalize high price gold machines if you are the sort of person who is confident you can find enough gold to pay for your detector.

The thing is I never thought the GPZ would sell very well because it as priced so high. Then I opened my eyes. There are people here in the U.S. buying GPZ detectors that have found little if any gold in the past with detectors. There are people that show up at outings with a 24 foot motor home pulling a side by side ATV behind. There are people for whom buying a $10,000 metal detector is no different than buying a high price set of golf clubs or a snowmobile or a boat. Yes, I understand many people have tight budgets, but it is also obvious many people have lots of money to throw at their pastimes and playthings. The GPZ 7000 shocked me with how many people bought them. I was honestly hoping the price would limit the numbers seen in the field for at least a year or two.

The relic people seem to be the same way. There was little resistance to moving up to the GPX 5000 back east in the big relic hunts when it became obvious those machines would deliver the goods VLF detectors missed. The GPZ has not has made as much impact there simply because it is too sensitive to tiny trash so a relic hunter is normally better off with a GPX, which has more ability to deal with at least some trash. Lots of beach hunters are using GPX detectors now. And even some park hunters in the never ending quest for more depth.

So I am wondering just how much more I would be willing to shell out to be the first kid on my block to have a real leg up on the competition with a machine that could make silver coins easy to find again in U.S. parks by offering better discrimination at depth. I then of course I figured I would ask you all the same question. What is the most you would shell out for such a machine if it really delivered the goods?

Me, I looked at the $12,000 for the AKA Intronik and initially thought that was crazy. The more I think about it however I am not so sure - if it really worked. Sure, that would price many people right out of the thing, but oddly enough that would make others crave it even more. There is always something attractive in basic marketing 101 for people having possession of something other people can't afford.

What say you forum members? Would you buy an AKA Intronik if it really performed as advertised and for such a high price? If not, what would it be worth to you?

Please note - I am not saying the AKA Intronik does do what it says in any way. I truly have no idea. But if it does, what is the "right price"?

 

 

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The 12k price was just a number plucked from the air over on another forum, but somehow it done the rounds, latest from AKA is that the Intronik will be in the $3000-$3500 range for the top model and also a lite version will be produced without the deep hoard hunting capabilities.

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I bought a CTX mostly on a whim. I was intending to hit the beach hard and often-and reap gold by the pound. Of course, I wanted to hit my favorite parks for old silver and it worked great! However, many parks do not allow detecting because of various sorts of fools and idiots. So to answer your question regarding a coin detector...not a penny more for coin hunting than I paid for my 3030.

now, nugget hunting is a different story...

fred

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Good Evening Cant bet but i am sure the new beast will be french i know a couple of guys working on a promising technology few prototypes did very well ........i am saving for it .And an intronik of course

 

 

 

RR

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After putting up the 10,000 for the gpz only to watch the price drop by 2,000  6 months later I still have a bad taste in my mouth. Sure I got $50 off for buying another 19 inch coil that cost 3x the average coil. Yes the gpz is giving me better depth and I am finding more gold then with my old detector. When some of the small plastic parts broke,,, A well known dealer said sorry that's not covered under the warranty.. So I am not so sure I feel like my 10,000 went to the right company. What this means is if another company comes out with anything close to performance of a gpz and a lower cost I would buy it. I will not buy another 10,000 detector for sure from anyone without a lifetime warranty. A lot of us are are coming up on the 3 year warranty of the gpz they are non replaceable parts, it breaks you get/buy a new one. Would you? Anything that high in price needs a lifetime warranty. 

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9 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

The thing is I never thought the GPZ would sell very well because it as priced so high. Then I opened my eyes. There are people here in the U.S. buying GPZ detectors that have found little if any gold in the past with detectors. There are people that show up at outings with a 24 foot motor home pulling a side by side ATV behind. There are people for whom buying a $10,000 metal detector is no different than buying a high price set of golf clubs or a snowmobile or a boat. Yes, I understand many people have tight budgets, but it is also obvious many people have lots of money to throw at their pastimes and playthings. The GPZ 7000 shocked me with how many people bought them. I was honestly hoping the price would limit the numbers seen in the field for at least a year or two.

Here's my two cent worth, if a technology existed where a detector could detect deeper than a PI and identify a target with decent accuracy under any severe type ground and trash conditions a manufacturer could probably sell it in the $5000-$7500 range. They are many people out there that have existing or potential sites they could hunt and recoup the cost of the detector in a short time depending on type of "treasure" they going after.

In the quote above the example of people buying a $10,000 detector shows that there are people out that will buy a detector in that price range just because they can without the worry or consideration if they ever recoup the cost of the detector. If you enjoy what you are doing and you have the money the price isn't going to be a problem. People with tighter budgets, any detector I believe over the $ 2500 range will be somewhat cautious in making that purchase. People causally involved in the past time probably wouldn't purchase a detector over the $700 range and that's why the market share of detector production is I believe is focus on.  It would be very interesting to know how may people who have purchase a GPZ since its introduction and have at least recoup the cost of the detector. I believe many out there that have purchase a GPZ and have productive areas to hunt you probably or will recoup the cost of the detector.

I guess the question is how much will that detector will cost, can the serious detectorists be able to afford it or not. In my case if the number of detectors I and my wife have now and in the past, we weren't really considering the cost of enjoying our past time.

 

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Is it possible to get a modded vlf detector, that can bypass FCC regs, and pump up the juice , for greater depth like a PI? :)

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I am still waiting patiently for the FIsher CZX myself. I have zero interest in foreign made detectors due to warranty issues and extremely high shipping costs these days. I would rather wait and buy from a tried and true USA based company with a solid warranty. Fisher is long overdue with something to replace the dated Gold Bug 2 machine, for now, the Gold Bug 2 is still on top of the heap for small gold detection as far as I am concerned. Just have to wait I guess, or give the new Minelab Gold Monster 1000 a whirl in the mean time.

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1 hour ago, DolanDave said:

Is it possible to get a modded vlf detector, that can bypass FCC regs, and pump up the juice , for greater depth like a PI? :)

Hi Dave,

You will have to just take my word for it that the FCC and "pumping up the juice" have little to do with the problem at hand. Were that the issue people would make machines like that elsewhere and people would bootleg them into the U.S. It is the underlying ground cancelation technology that has limits - simply applying more power is not the answer. In fact that usually just lights up the ground more and blinds the detector.

A secondary issue regards making extremely sensitive receivers in a world inundated with more electrical interference as time passes.

You actually can build high power detectors in the U.S. with the Minelab PI detectors and GPZ as examples. In a VLF applying more power offers some benefit but it is a case of rapidly diminishing returns. From the White's V3i Advanced Manual (page 3-1) -

"TX Boost

TX Boost is transmit boost. When enabled, it triples the transmit voltage applied to the loop (from 10V to 30V) and increases the depth. Using this feature has two major drawbacks: it can overload some loops (reduce the Rx Gain), and it quickly drains the battery.

There are two common uses for TX Boost. One is when hunting an unusually “clean” area where most targets have been cleaned out, and only deep targets remain. TX Boost typically gives about a 1” depth increase. The other is when EMI noise is severe. Reducing the Rx Gain reduces EMI but also reduces target signal strength. Applying TX Boost increases target signal strength but does not increase EMI noise, so TX Boost can be used to improve signal-to-noise."

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What I got now I don't see why I'd need to put out more than 800 to 1500 for a coin detector. Oh don't get me wrong I like my detector to ID whatever it is correct but if it don't I'll know when I bring it to life. Two moons ago my Eagle 2 said this coin was down 9 1/2" and the guy with me his detector couldn't see it. I dug it up and it had ID the coin correct. The coin was at the bottom of a small hill and dirt had wash off the top and that is the only reason it was that deep. The coin wasn't even old. Just about all the old coins I've found that date back to the early 1800 was not deep at all.

On a gold detector I'm not sure just how much I'm willing to spend on one. I've had the 17000 GP Extreme 3500 4500 2300 and now got the Gold Monster 1000 on the way. I guess you could say I'm advancing to the rear. I didn't list other detector but just the ones from Minelab.

I'd have to be living in gold country are the gold fever would have to hit me harder than it has already. If I did live in gold country I'd had the GPZ long ago even at a dollar less than 10.

If I was rich I'd drive a dozier around Rich Hill and cut about 6" off the top as I drove around. In this way I wouldn't need that high dollar detector. I too could charge off the dozier off my tax saying I'm clearing ground for BLM.

Chuck

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