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How Much Would You Pay For VLF Type Discrimination At PI Type Depths?


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 Dang! wouldn't ya know it. I just traded my milk cow and all my money for a small bag of magic beans and a new detector comes out. I'll have to start saving again. I am quite sure that by the time I save $12000 we will have heard a couple of rumors as to weather the thing really works. (unless my magic beans pay off)

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5 hours ago, Ringmoney said:

The 12k price was just a number plucked from the air over on another forum, but somehow it done the rounds, latest from AKA is that the Intronik will be in the $3000-$3500 range for the top model and also a lite version will be produced without the deep hoard hunting capabilities.

Well, $3500 beats $12000, that is for sure! So, are you getting one so we can get a report? Or know anybody that is?

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I could see spending $3500 - 4000 on a new beach machine if it outperformed the ctx. I dont detect expecting a complete return on investment though. Wouldnt happen within a reasonable time frame on the beaches around here. I detect because I enjoy it. Even with the ridiculous number of my machines I have in my collection, I still think its cheaper and more effective than conventional therapy. 

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I know this has changed since I sold my GPZ and moved back home, but I didn't meet a single owner who wasn't a dealer, related to a dealer, friends with a dealer, or related to Minelab in some way for almost 4 months after the US release here.

At the time people were getting dealer discounts far below the veteran discount just for being friends with dealers. The only people I ever met - ever - in the field who were my age or younger all were friends with or employees of dealers. I know at the time when the GPZ's were $10,700, people were buying them for $6900 or something around there. For guys like me who have no savings or retirement funds and have to take loans to buy something like this, that's all the difference in the world.

Here's my point: If the new machine is some new company without a US presence and without a bunch of discounting for the "friend network" then I bet you will see a lot less of people in my generation or younger buying one.

So, I'd guess the major chunk of the market really boils down to what the people nearing retirement, or already retired can afford to pay, or want to pay. I know there are guys out there who would pay $20k for a wizbang detector and probably wouldn't even think twice to find a few ounces of gold because it's just for fun and the "bass fishing boat" argument comes into full play, where that argument is meaningless for guys like me.

There are really 2 different markets in the high end metal detector world it seems like, so I bet there are probably 2 different types of answers to this question.

Edit: What would I pay for such a detector as described in the original post? $1500. :biggrin: Trash isn't much of a problem for me, I'd be just about as happy with a Deus. Make a detector that detects huge areas quickly at a low resolution (square miles in a day) while being automated so I can go back with a normal PI and I'll take another loan out to buy that one.

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As Steve pointed out in the first post, Simultaneous multi frequency ("multifreakers" as Dave Johnson calls them) can discriminate at good depth even in bad ground.  Unfortunately, existing ones are relatively insensitive to lower conductors - not a problem for coin hunters and ferrous/nonferrous discrimination is weaker on deep targets.

I strongly suspect that faster cpu's and digital signal processors will be used along with advanced methods of signal processing in software will make possible multifreakers which offer previously unattainable levels of discrimination. If this happens, I would also expect that new means of inputing the data into the "final processor" - your brain - will be developed.  I'm convinced that simpler but much more informative user interfaces will appear.

Cost?  i belong to a local club in Phoenix.  Our membership average age is over 60 I'm sure.  There are 2 consequences of this.  First, lots of us will be gone from the scene within 5 - 7 years.  Secondly - even if younger folks are attracted to the quest, it's pretty much been a middle-class - working-class hobby.  The 20 - 40 year old folks in that demographic are not going to have the kind of disposable income that we had at that age - and it will only get worse as they start to look at their retirement savings and kids college $$. Not to mention that ever more good jobs will be automated.

I believe that the era of >$2000 top end coin and relic units is over. My bet is that $1500 is the new benchmark for the very top with $800 - $1000 as the norm. 

One last thing.  User/customer support is vital.  If somebody is spending hard-earned $$ on a top of the line detector, they have every right to expect a generous warranty and top level support. We used to depend on our dealers for this, but not all of them were up to it - and they are becoming fewer. Direct support by manufacturers including fast turn around on warranty service, online chat, FAQ (frequently asked questions) pages, Facebook and YouTube presence are all the norm in other high end products.  With my Macintosh, iPhone and iPad I get lifetime-of-unit free phone or online help plus the option to schedule a Genius Bar appointment to get help in person.  Why should support for my $2000 detector be worse than support for $200 electronic gadget?

Gotta stop now - my cristal ball is all smudged with fingerprints.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Well, $3500 beats $12000, that is for sure! So, are you getting one so we can get a report? Or know anybody that is?

When it finally comes out i will consider it but at that price i think i will be waiting for a few reports first. I have become very sceptical about claims being made by certain companies. Sure the Signum is the most powerfull detector i have ever used but i have yet to find sites that power can be used. Most of the time you end up trying to calm the beast. My openion is the Sorex is a more user friendly machine and still as deep in most situations.

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Guest Tnsharpshooter

I am sure the gears are turning at the different manuafacturers' hubs.

PI depth doesn't even have to be attained,,just deep with good ID, not even best here.

Digging PI deep holes in parks,,,this will put a quick stop to detecting in them.

A deeper hole also means a wider hole,,and will cause more visible damage,,vs what is happening now.

In my area,,depth is not the culprit for finding the goodies,,unmasking and seapartion capabilities seem more important.

Which leads to,,,will a future deeper mystery detector be capable of separation/unmasking similar to Deus and Impact detector??

Mulit freq detectors ,,,has there even been one that was a grand separator/unmasker??

Higher mineral dirt- has First Texas ever made a detector in the past that was above average or grand in this department??

Has the FBS technology,,has it reached its peak for performance??

A manufacturer that does break the mode here with depth, with Vlf tech,,especially in higher mineral dirt,,a higher price detector would sell,,manufacturer has to watch how high they price,,,cause one never knows when another manufacturer may slide in under with some thing similar performing.

Does make me wonder,,why the price decrease suddenly on First Texas flagship after public release of MSRP of Impact.

Coincidence??

Oh and while I am here.

Where are the videos showing Deus V4 in action.

Folks reading here,,most will know whom I'm referring to.

Something is going on with Deus V4 in my ground,,it ain't mild,,so let's see Deus V4 in that test garden with video.

Surprising how quiet SOME have been with Deus V4.

Makes me wonder.

 

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It's been quite a while since I posted around these parts but this is a fun subject.  I've wondered about the rumored new technology detectors and pricing because it impacts whether I want to chance buying/trialing a Bulgarian, or Russian machine or wait it out.  Plus I have a healthy dose of paranoia of wasting my money on another VLF that does wonderfully on youtube or out in a pasture 20 miles from town but is pretty much average in my local urban soil and EMI conditions.  

I think there are two or three ways of looking at a new tech machine and pricing.  Obviously a manufacturer has to look at their costs for R&D, production costs, staffing for support, distribution, expected sales volume, etc. and go from there to make sure they succeed as a business.  Let's pretend that total base cost is $300 per machine to produce.  Lets say it's performance would essentially kill both PI and VLF machines currently on the market depending on the pricing.  So what do they set the MSRP at?  I guess it will depend on what a given company currently sells and what machines in their own line they intend to kill off.  I think in the case of ML they would shoot for around $3k-$4k so it's positioned over the CTX.  Or maybe kill the CTX and replace it with the new model.  Or maybe $10k since they aren't shy about these things.  If it's FTP I would think they would want to set MSRP over their highest (while lowering the F75 Ltd) around $2k to sell like hot cakes and kill off almost all competition which may include putting a dent in their lineup.  But FTP has already positioned themselves for cutting the MSRP and eliminating existing machines so it might makes sense.  If you are a Russian or Bulgarian company, don't have a large lineup and have already shown you are willing to undercut the big boys with price/performance then maybe a sub $1500 price range would sweep away the competition while making them very rich.  If the new machine sniffs gold reliably and deep then I may consider focusing on the gold market in Africa, Australia and US first and sell a lot of units fast.  No matter what can a new model be produced fast enough to keep up with demand if priced at the lower end?

Now me as a consumer?  It depends.  If I live in an area with hard soils and primarily coin hunt I may not be interested because it would be overkill.  Locally in my case we are seeing coins go past 10 inches in older urban areas.  Most machines fail at that depth or hit and miss at best.  I take the usual YT "tests" with huge grains of salt since the location of the 10 inch coins is already known while the ground is scrubbed.  It's not like the usual random walking around and swinging which is affected by a lot of stuff like surface weeds, EMI, speed of the swing, etc.  For all I know some coins may be heading towards 15 inches locally.  But after a while it may not be practical to dig a hole 15 inches deep and tick off the local city.  I can't say I wouldn't blame them actually.  In which case we can say goodbye to all of those nice old coins.  That only leaves clad and to me that isn't worth spending much money on a detector.  BUT if I were into relic hunting (I wish I was back east) then something $2k or under would get my attention.  Gold hunting, maybe $5k would get my attention since I might view it as an investment and expect some return versus being just a hobby machine.  Then as the new whiz bang machines get sold there will be all of that used equipment sitting around and selling cheap which will directly affect the leftover VLF and PI new retail sales.  It will be interesting to watch. 

I hope I get wind of a new machine early enough within my budget so I can sell off about everything else I own at that time.  ;)

 

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22 hours ago, Rick Kempf said:

I believe that the era of >$2000 top end coin and relic units is over. My bet is that $1500 is the new benchmark for the very top with $800 - $1000 as the norm. 

Could not disagree more strongly. I think Jason was more on the money. There are different people in different price categories. To be very general about it there is the "economy" market that simply wants a cheap detector. I would define this as the under $300 market. Then there is the "bang-for-the-buck" that tends to cluster around the $500 - $700 mark. And finally a "premium" market at over $1000.

I think one reason Minelab got so far ahead of much of the competition was by not being constrained by the "people won't pay that much for a detector" mentality. Sure, some people can't afford to spend a lot on detectors. Some just don't want to - it is a matter of priorities. There are also plenty of people who pay money every year to fly to the U.K. to pay even more to go on farm field hunts. I hosted people at Moore Creek, Alaska that flew from all over the world to pay me even more to spend a week or two or three at my mine. Ganes Creek, Alaska was another big example. People fly on detecting vacations to Australia all the time. The idea that anyone that is into detecting is a young guy starting out who lacks the funds or a retiree on a budget is simply false. Even the dirt poor Africans proved they can find the big bucks if they have to.

I am not saying it is or even should be where the market is focused, but it is essential to progress that at least some companies are willing to invest the money in R&D to produce cutting edge product, and that product may carry a cutting edge price. I do think there will for at least the rest of my lifetime be a market for premium price high performance detectors. The key simply is they have to offer a true and measureable edge for at least some people under some circumstances. There is so much room for improvement and so many opportunities yet being left on the table for detector manufacturers to take advantage of it is kind of amazing really from my perspective.

Now that would of course change if somebody made a true breakthrough in the technology and then decided to commit business malpractice by selling it for half what it is worth. That would be great for us as consumers but it gets people fired at companies.

Anyway, my prediction is pretty simple. The market is splitting, with a race to the bottom occurring with standard mass production VLF and PI detectors underway. Great days for buyers of these products, and it is all most will ever need. Then there will continue to be a premium market for people willing to spend the kind of money on detectors that gun owners don't think twice about. I am a frugal person who spends little money on anything else in life, and metal detecting/prospecting is my one and only pastime/passion. I will scrimp, save, and sacrifice anywhere else in my life if need be to spend as much money as I want on metal detectors. It is the one thing I treat myself to, no questions asked. I know I am not the only person for whom that holds true.

If somebody makes a true handheld ground radar unit that can literally see through aluminum but be stopped by gold I am here to tell the manufacturers I will find whatever money it takes to buy that detector. All that is really keeping that from happening is advanced battery power, the kind companies are developing right this minute. We are far from done folks.

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