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Chase Goldman

Best Way To Determine Optimal Ground Sensitivity (new Ver 4.1 Setting)

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This change really bugs me.  Seems like now we have a setting that can really screw up performance if it is not set properly and really have not been provided with the tools to properly determine the optimal setting.  Its kind of like saying manually set ground balance based on the height of a bargraph without any units shown.  Any scientific method at setting this parameter consistently and optimally?

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7 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

This change really bugs me.  Seems like now we have a setting that can really screw up performance if it is not set properly and really have not been provided with the tools to properly determine the optimal setting.  Its kind of like saying manually set ground balance based on the height of a bargraph without any units shown.  Any scientific method at setting this parameter consistently and optimally?

My 2 cents here.

Everyone's run time with version 4.1 is restricted obviously.

I think XP should have explained in the 4.1V manual what they were seeing as far as the why behind the change.  

A couple other things here.

To make ground phase pop in window, seems a person can continue to raise ground sensitivity, then ground phase should come in window.  (Maybe not on super mild ground, I don't have any super mild ground) But is having a number in window advantageous for depth??

Or if a person dials ground sens number too high, will Deus be deeper and or have higher possibility of falsing.  Meaning falsing could be heard, could this fool a person, when Deus does come over fringe depth detectable target.

So was the elimination of ground noise the reason behind this new system here?

Usually though, for peak depth of detecting (Vlf) some ground noise is some thing a person has to put up with.

When this weather gets out of here.  I may load 4.0 back in one of my units.  Compare a 9" LF coil V4.0 to 9" LF coil V4.1.  

Forgot  to say here.  Manual states on lighter mineralized ground selecting 1-5 ground sens setting, Deus will set itself to best setting.  So my question is, is this a continuous process, with Deus changing this setting for mineral strength?

I also may try to go to a few places with varying minerlization levels and see how playing with ground sens setting affects Deus giving phase number.

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You got it Tn, now its a guessing game for us.  Would be better if you could enable or disable this feature (so the unit worked as before or you could turn it on an tweak and play with it).  I think I am going to stay away from 4.1 for awhile until you and others get a handle on how to set it.  I'll be watching your posts to see what you come up with in the comparison, in the mean time its 4.0 for me.

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For those who are not sure what the discussion is about, version 4.1 adds a new function - Ground Sensitivity. Page 35 of the new 4.1 Owner's Manual:

xp-deus-41-ground-sensitivity.jpg

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Alright 
I will start here with info.
I will keep posting here with info.
So those who want to read can follow along if they wish as I post info.
I will date my info here so folks can realize what have and haven't read.

Metals detecting testing is fun.
Can be challenging too.
Look
zwlwmo.jpg
Outside temp 16F.


All my testing will be done, even comparing  test between V4 and V4.1.
9" LF coil
Hot program
Sens 93
Reactivty 2.5
Silencer -1
Freq will use 18khz and 8khz.
Audio response 5
Disc 0 full tones,
No notch or ground notch.

1-17-2018
Today using 18khz only using version 4.1 just sweeping.
The following noted.
Field cleaner site.
4 ticks in mineralization meter when bobbing coil over clean ground.

Tracking GB used exclusively.

Sweeping coil using default ground sensitive setting (level 6) no top number in phase meter ever.  Bottom number stayed at 88.
Bobbing coil would yield a ground phase number matching actual ground in both top and bottom of phase meter.
But after bobbing coil, sweeping GB phase of actual ground drops off.  And 88 displayed-bottom number.

Lowering to 4 on ground sense setting.  Even bobbing coil no numbers in either meter corresponding to actual ground.
Level 5 setting bobbing coil yielded actual,ground phase numbers in both meters.

Raising ground sens to 7, and sweeping coil,,actual ground phase info would come into both top and bottom meters, but would quite often drop out of top meter, making it blank.
Bottom number would hold, but every now and then go to 88, and with more sweeping would lock back to ground.

Raising to level 8, behavior similar to level 7 but unit would hold actual ground phase more often.  Fewer moments of 88 readings with bottom number.

Raising to level 9, again better actual ground phase tracking.

Raising to level 10, here V4.1 seems to emulate what I am more accustomed to seeing with versions 3.2 and 4.0.
Detector keeps actual ground phase in window never ever drops out. (This statement here applies to clean ground only)

Now next I did a comparison with just monitoring noise as coil was swept.  Compared ground sens levels 4 and 10.
Level 4 definitely quieter.
Remember this not talking here about how potential depth may be affected.

More data.
Same field as above.
Disclaimer: in some spots in this field I do get 5 ticks in mineral strength meter.

Still exclusively using 9" LF coil version 4.1.
Did a straight up comparison using actual phase attained using pumping GB dialing this value in using manual ground balance (phase 77 btw)
Sweeping over the patch of ground standing in the same place.  Compared ground sensitivity settings levles 1, default setting 6 and 10.  Level 1 the quietest, noise when sweeping elevated going to level 6, with even more noise elevation going to max level 10.

Next took a look at achieving bobbing GB while in GB tracking using freqs of 4, 8 and 18khz.
As I said before ground sensitivity set to level 4 in 18khz, no GB phase displayed bobbing coil in tracking GB.
Using 4 kHz and 8khz bobbing coil in tracking, GB achievable with ground sensitivity at level 2, with 8khz taking longer (more bobs) vs 4 kHz.

Should also comment here.  I could hear feedback as coil was lowered (based on ground sensitivity setting) meaning I saw a pattern where I had a pretty good idea if a bobbing GB while in tracking GB was achievable.

This concludes today's testing.  More tomorrow hopefully.

1-18-2018
More data

Uaing Deus V4.1 9" LF coil

Comparing ground sensitivity settings of 1 and 10, airtest on clad dime, I see no real differences.
Only used 18khz to test, Reactivty 2.5, GB set to 90..

Compared level 1 and 10 ground sensitivity settings while holding detector pointed up at light wires and transformer, to see if Deus chatter or noise affected.  No real differences noted.

Take a look at this pic. A nail and small piece of lead.
2mwx8jm.jpg

Using disc setting 2.5 full tones 18khz Reactivty 3, swing across nail and small piece of lead.
Detector ground balanced to steps phase 78.
Comparing ground sensitivity settings.
The lead object tonal presentation is more corrupt at ground sensitivity level 10.  Tone is blurtier  sounding and shorter, compared to lower ground sens settings,  Level 1 provides a more robust, and more actual nonferrous pitched signal.
I do realize this is on top of the steps (ground) test, but I do think it sheds light here on application of ground sensitivity setting.
Doing this test and seeing (hearing) results, the small piece of lead, more odds of detecting with lower than max setting of ground sensitivity setting.  I did keep my sweep speed consistent when comparing.  Faster sweep speed although extremely small gives better detection here with lower ground sensitivity settings.  This was a 2d dimensional test.

Another test, this time 3D.
2 nails above clad dime.
jtp3mg.jpg

On the same set of steps with detector manually GB to steps.
Reactivty 3 18khz silencer -1, full tones.
I dialed disc to 4, this gets rid of nails when swept solo.
Sweeping the setup in pic, ground sensitivity level 10, a shorter tone, more blunt sounding, more easily confused with iron signal.  Lower ground sensitvty setting tone gets more full, robust, longer, cleaner sounding on the edges. Again lower ground sens settings IMO allows faster sweep speed, coil movement and be alerted to suspect target.

More data
Deus V4.1 with 9" round HF coil
I took the detector for a spin in the same field as yesterday.
As far as ground balance tracking goes, very similar behavior to the 9" LF coil when sweeping.
One thing I did notice different vs the 9" LF coil.
The round HF coil will actually get a ground balance with tracking GB selected when bobbing coil with lower ground sensitivity levels selected..  But 54 kHz needed higher value than 14.4khz and 28.8 kHz to accomplish.

Here might be the biggie though.
So far when testing the round HF coil, doing even the same 3D test above using the 2 nails and clad dime and some other 2d separation test with nails,,so far it seems ground sensitivity setting has NO effect.  I listened close.  Definitely not like the 9" LF coil here.
If I see some thing to reverse what I have said here on this I'll admit and post.

More data
Took the HF elliptical coil for a spin in same field V4.1.
It behaves similar as far as tracking GB goes as the rest of coils.
Ground sensitivity level 8 and higher would hold a good tracking GB, level 7 hit and miss, anything lower default to 88.
It like the round HF seems will achieve a gb when tracking GB is selected while bobbing coil allowing lower ground sensibility setting vs 9"LF coil.

And I also did a few separation and unmasking tests.  It too mimmicks round HF coil, meaning ground sensitivity setting doesn't affect tonal signature unlike the the 9"LF coil.
I will definitely be watching this in the field.
The ground sensitivity setting does affect the way Deus tracks using both HF coils.

More data.
An actual head to head comparison using 2 completely differnent Deus units one V4.0 the other V4.1, both wearing 9" LF coils
Take a look at this pic, clad dime and nail
21261yp.jpg

I booby trapped this nail and dime and used V4.1 Deus (ground sensitivity setting at 10) to rig to get just a flash of hit on the dime.
Settings used here on both detectors
Sens 93
Disc 2.5 full tones
Silencer -1
Reactivty 4
Ground balance manual 78
Audio response 5
Now the 4.0 coil was running at 17603 hz
The 4.1 coil was running at 17730hz

No hanky panky here, a fair test.
It has been said a ground  sensitivity setting level V4.1 = 10 when compared to Deus V4.0.
Down the barrel sweep.
Disclaimer here: backphones wore on both detecrors, winds light.

Based on comparing using both detectors with the V 4.1 Deus set to 10 ground sensitivity it for all practical purposes mirrored the 4.0 version setup.
But here were the differences noted with changing ground sensitivity setting sweeping the same exact scenario.
Between ground sensitivity levels 5-7 the signal provided on V4.1 Deus better, more repetitive fuller sounding.
Lower than 5 really no signal at all.
IMO even dialing 4.1version to a level 9 setting beat  the V4.0 version setup( remember no ground sensitivity setting on it)

Maybe this is a hint here with this test why default level ground sensivity is level 6 Deus V4.1.

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WOW Tn.  Lots to think about here. Thanks. 

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All Deus LF coil users may find helpful.

First of all, many XP Deus users were impatient it seems with Xp's rollout of V4.1.  I plus many others were experiencing link up problems, even frozen screens, loss of audio for extended times in conjunction with the MI-6 pinpointer use.  Well the supposed delay of V4.1 most folks may have thought it was fixing the  pairing problem.  I really don't know.  But will say the delay could have been getting V4.1 correct for what they had in mind with the LF coils.  Folks may be raising their eyebrows by reading the last statement.  But after you read what I am about to post, it will defintiely be more clear to you.

If folks thought the Deus and use of LF coils was deadly, even in iron, I've got news for folks.  Version 4.1 is NOT a bells and whistles update.  Sure it seems to have remedied the problems associated with pinpointer use but the version does much more.  This improvement seems to be linked to the ground sensitivity setting which is accessed under expert tab after a person selects ground balance.

Today I spent 5 hours afield testing and using Deus V4.0 and Deus V4.1.
I used 9" LF coils, round HF coil, and the elliptical HF coil.

What I witnessed today all Deus users using LF coils wil benefit.  Looking for coins, jewelry, and relics.

To start the day off I went to an old fort site where back in circa 1990 it was studied and parts of dug up.  When finished the team purposely broadcast zinc washers in this area.  So these washers have been buried for around 25 plus years.  A great test bed.  Depth of washer vary in the site.  This area not tilled since the archeological investigation/ dig. 
I have spoken to the landowner and he attest this site not tilled since his purchasing in 1992.  The team was almost finished when he purchased the farm.

So my goal was to find what I thought was a few of the washers that were challenged, either by depth, orientation, or partially masked.  Today I found 2 such washers.

I actually used the round HF coil dialed to 28.8khz to find one of the washers and Deus V4.1 using 9" LF coil to find the other.

These washers are zinc it seems, so not low conductors.
Here is a pic of both of them I dug today.


The soil in this site shows 5-6 dots when pumping coil over clean ground.

All detectors today were ran right at actual ground phase setting using manual GB.
Hot program used.
Silencer setting -1 used for all test and later even detecting in the wild.
Highest freq band (18khz) used unless otherwise noted using LF coils.
24w8w1x.jpg
Both of the above washers, depth wise, one at 6" approx deep, the other at 6.5" deep.  I cannot vouch for the orientation of either washer.  I suspect they may have been tilted, one of the washers may have had some masking going on with some iron near, based on what I was hearing.

Both of these washers gave much better audio with ground sensitivity setting set between levels 5-7.
I even did a head to head using Deus V4 9" LF coil comparison on the washers undisturbed. 
All day today all comparisons comparing Deus V4 vs Deus V4.1 using 9" LF coils all mirrored one another as long as the V4.1 setup had ground sensitivity set to max of 10.

So what did adjusting ground sensitivity do for the signals?
Like I said these 2 targets best signal ( cleanest, least iron sound on edges) was when levels 5-7 selected.
Going lower or going higher both washers sounded the same, lots of iron tinge I signals edge.  Higher levels than 7 seems to make signal shorter more abrupt.

On the washer where I suspected some masking going on.  When approaching this buried zinc washer using the LF coil V4.1 ground sensitivity set to 10, approaching the same way as I actually found using round HF coil 28.8 kHz, tonally nothing I would have dug.  But with this same approach angle dial ground sensitivity to 5-7 I would dig all day long.  I did compare both these washers using round HF coil dialed to 14.4 kHz.  Both washers yielded better signals with round high coil 14.4 kHz vs LF coils set to 18khz.  Special note here, and I saw this yesterday with my on top concrete steps testing.  Using round HF coil here (didn't check these 2 washers using elliptical HF coil), both washers' signal, NO help at all adjusting ground sensitivity setting. Levels 1, 6,7, and 10 all sounded the same quality to me.  I was wearing full headphones btw.

Next test was a freshly buried clad dime approx Garrett propointer length deep.

I compared V4 Deus and V4.1 LF coils setups as well as both HF coils.

Both LF coil setups mirrored one another again as long as V4.1 coil ground sensitivity setting was dialed level 10 max.

Up into sweeping the dime using V4.1 coil setup, signal,was Chopped, lowering ground sensitivity setting to level 6 or 7 gave the smoothest signal.  Going lower this buried dime signal acted more like what I heard using a ground sensitivity level 10 setting. 
Strength of tone comparing level 10 vs level 6 or 7, I heard no difference.  But levels 6 and 7 provided better overall tonal quality.

Both levels 6 and 7 outperformed level 10, with even letting Deus after selecting Reactivty 2 and letting silencer level go to its default setting.

Here is some thing some may find interesting.
Round HF coil actually underperformed signal wise compared to Deus LF coil V4.1 with the ground sensivity setting set to levels 6 and 7.
And this difference noted here was more when both coil setups when Reactivty 2 selected and silencer migrates to higher level be default.

On the freshly buried clad dime using V4.1 9" LF coil freq 12khz band outperformed using the highest band 18khz.  I did not compare V4.0 9" LF coil while using 12khz band.  Keep in mind this was a freshly buried target.  I thing both HF coils have some problems in disturbed soil.  Morseso than the LF coils do.

So I packed up and went about 600 yards to a site I have hunted quite a bit.  To see what I could find, and yes do some comparisons.

The ground in this next site same/similar mineralized as the site talked about above. All targets discovered and compared with GB dialed to actual GB phase all detector/coil setups.

Here is a pic of what I found.  I will discuss each as far as what I witnessed.

1yk18o.jpg

I started off in this site thinking, maybe if I use the round HF coil, maybe I can find something nonferrous faster.  No guarantee though the V4.1 LF 9" coil would see.  Anyway this is what I did.
Used Reactivty 3 btw on round HF coil and when comparing using V4.1 LF coil used the same Reactivty 3.
First target turned out to be the small foil above in pic.
I checked this suspect target with round HF coil using 14.4 kHz and could hear although not as nicely as using 28.8khz.  So Imwas thinking the 9" LF coil would hit it.
Sweeping the V4.1 9" LF coil with ground sensitvty setting with same coil approach angle as how I actually discovered this target originally, with ground
sensitivity set to 10-- NOTHING I would ever think about digging.  Lowered ground sensitivity setting to 6, I could hear this target pretty good.  Now pivoting around on this target I could get some thing more worth investigating using ground sensitivity 10 setting.  Sweeping this foil from angle I originally found, lower ground sensitivity levels lower than 5 yielded no benefits, actually signal here (goggly took/static) Inheard sounded like it did with level 10 setting. With best approach angle swinging coil both level 6 and 10 ground sensitvty settings sounded more near one another.  Piece of foil a mere 2" deep approx.  There was ferrous around this foil multiple directions.

Next the object on the left a small piece of lead I think.
This target also found with round HF coil initially.
Sweeping this lead target undisturbed again using higher levels of ground sensitivity setting yielded poorer signals as well as ground sensitivity levels of 3 and lower.  Both lower and higher ground sensitvty settings sounded the same to me signal quality wise.

Next is the bigger piece of lead, looks like a deformed bullet.
This nonferrous target was again discovered using round HF coil at 28.8 kHz.  I rate this signal achieved even using Round HF using 28.& kHz as compromised but not enough to keep me from locating.  Switching to 14.4khz using round HF coil yielded a worse signal than 28.8khz but better than the V4.1 9" LF coil (all ground sensitivity settings).
So yes sweeping this bullet undisturbed, it was the only target nonferrous I found today where adjusting ground sensitivity setting didn't help one iota.  I would have bet listening if I would have only swept with LF coil it was a piece of flat iron.

So I took a break for a few minutes, and thought to myself. How about trying to locate a nonferrous target using V4.1lf coil with ground sensitivity dialed to 6 and have a go, based on what I had wintered thus far.

Well off I went and I got a hit. A hit I would have rated as > 90 percent chance of being nonferrous.  But dialing ground sensivity setting up to 10 and sweeping the odds I place the would ace been < 15 percent chance.  This was even pivoting all the way around the target while sweeping.  Turned out to be the piece of brass or something.  It does sphave some green patina on it.

So in a nutshell.
IMO Deus V4.1 can indeed hunt behind V4.0 using LF coils.
I have not experimented or tested or hunted using either of my 11" LF coils.

All comparisons done today again I repeat, I never did see where adjusting ground sensitivity setting on high freq coils improved anything.

I should also point out.  Unless my ears are bad.  Running both the LF coils and HF coils,,using lower or lowest Ground sensitivity setting with all coils run at being actually balanced to ground, I saw no difference in less noise being heard.

I did comment in earlier post where a level 4 setting was quieter than level 10, remember though at level 4 the Deus goes to default 88 GB setting, well above my ground phase, hence it is quieter.

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1-20-2018

Today's V4.1 talk.

Used 11" LF coil exclusively.

I did no comparisons to other version, even other coil sizes, or the HF coils.

I can say with 100% certainty that V4.1 has indeed helped 11" LF coil just like it has the 9" LF coil.

You gotta hear this.  Remember I have been running Deus for a while now, loads of hours.

Today I dug my shoddiest signals ever using a Deus and was finding nonferrous targets, even coin sized while using 11" LF coil .

Now how was I able to do this?
If I told folks V4.1 actually gives Deus another way to discriminate, would you believe me??

Well, here's the deal.
I get these signals today.
Before I go any further, if folks will notice, all previous things I have said in this thread,,all nonferrous located previously was using round HF coil but one find.

So today I took the 11" coil uaing V4.1 to a pouned site.  Site has seen round HF coil and elliptical too.

Anyway I hunted using ground sensitivity setting 6, detector running at ground to maybe one point above using manual GB.

In this one portion of site, I get 4 hits.  Not really hits, but very lighthearted broken signals.  "These signals" (before yesterday and today using Deus and any previous versions)  I would usually attribute to nail or iron, maybe deeper nail.
So I am listening real careful wearing full headphones.
Crappy crappy signal.
But when I went from level 6 ground sensitivty to 10 signals either disappeared or got worse.

Sure enough all these crappy signals were indeed nonferrous.
Will post a pic.
2czrgv4.jpg
If I would have been running V4 and the 11" coil today, my best guess only 2 of these would have been found if I approached from the right direction.
The bigger piece elongated and the bigger pice of lead.


Now, here is something I am noticing, and your mileage may vary, this could be somewhat dependent on soil minerlization levels.  It is not foolproof, but I like what I seen when I dug a few verfiers.

So, a tip maybe here for folks.

You get a crappy signal running ground sensitivty 5-7 and it gets worse when you go to level 10= dig.

You get a crappy signal running ground sensitivty 5-7 and it gets better going to level 10= odds are it is iron.  Or if signal stays the some quality wise likely iron.

I wished I would have had an Equinox today and would have knew enough as far as squeezing all the performance out of it.  These 4 targets defintiely would have been good to see how the Equinox fairs against Deus 11" to 11" coil.

Again Kudos to XP for V4.1.
I like it!!!!!!

This will be my last post here as far as the subject of V4.1.  Unless I see some thing else significant  to share.  I will answer any questions folks have.

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Based on Tn's testing, other reading and quotes from XP folks like Gary Blackwell on other forums, I think I have pieced together what this Ground Sensitivity thing is doing.

First of all we need to take a look back at what XP was trying to accomplish with GB tracking.  

This is speculation because XP does not discuss much about secret sauce, but I believe prior to version 4 software, XP executedGB tracking as a time based feature.  In other words, while in tracking XP simply periodically measured ground phase reading and adjusted accordingly (say every 1.0 seconds).  This had the unfortunate drawback of cause ground phase reading to abruptly change when you were swinging over a ferrous target that had a pronounced effect over the localized ground phase reading and resulted in the dreaded disappearing target trick, wherein the target would simply disappear if you swung the coil over it enough times while in tracking mode provided the target affected the local ground phased reading (e.g., large iron target or hot rock). 

To solve this problem, I believe that in version 4, XP decided to use ground mineralization index as a trigger point to initialize a ground phase measurement.  Changes in subsequent mineralization index readings above a certain threshold would initiate a new ground phase reading.  The problem with this approach was that in highly mineralized soils you could get large swings in mineralization index which could result in unstable ground phase readings.

In an effort to fix this issue, I believe,  XP in version 4.1 implemented a user adjustable ground sensitivity setting that determines how much of a relative change in mineralization index needs to occur before the Deus takes a new ground phase reading for tracking purposes.  If the sensitivity is set low (e.g., towards 1) then a really significant change in mineralization index needs to occur (think of this as a large spike occurring on the mineralization bar graph meter before a ground phase reading is taken for tracking purposes.  If sensitivity is set high (e.g., towards 10) then only small changes in the mineralization index need to occur before a ground phase reading is taken for tracking purposes (think of only a small blip change in the mineralization bar graph changing).  So a 10 setting would be good if you wanted ground tracking on dry white sugar sand beaches with little mineralization and little change in mineralization and a 1 setting might be good in Culpeper which has high mineralization and large swings in the index.  What is unknown is what threshold change in mineralization is required for each sensitivity setting, whether the effect is linear, whether the magnitude of the mineralization index and not just the change in the index has any bearing on what you should set ground sensitivity (i.e., is it a percentage change in the baseline reading or an absolute change), and, finally, whether positive AND negative changes in mineralization index are tracked or only positive/increasing (or negative/decreasing) changes.  We do know that if a change in mineralization index above the threshold is not sensed for 7 seconds, ground phase defaults to 88 (this might happen, too, if the coil is stationary for greater than 7 seconds).

From reading information from a variety of sites and forums, it seems, according to Gary Blackwell, that XP had the version 4 software set to an equivalent ground sensitivity setting of 10 (!).  Also, Tn's testing has shown for some reason that the effect of the ground sensitivity setting seems to be less pronounced when using the HF coils.  Strange... (note that the HF coils are not "updated" when the version 4.1 update is applied to the Deus).

Bottom line, if you want to play it "safe" for most circumstances and soil mineralizations, using the default sensitivity of 6 is a good start (anywhere between 5 and 7 should work). 

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I've read the entire thread and am still a bit confused as to whether or not to GB before hunting. Or do I just turn the Deus on and hunt? I usually have 3 to 5 ticks on the mineralization bar, but still not sure what to do, if anything about that. I'm sure this thread is crystal clear to a lot of people, but not to me.

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