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davsgold

Making A Patch Lead For Gpz7000

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Andy, hard to say exactly as I'm kinda spitballing here just for illustrative purposes since these things can be hard to explain with words only for me. These graphs arent actual data points, just my very rough approximation of what I generally find when testing the same nuggets on different coils. I cant photoshop on my phone or I'd make another graph, but my recollection was at the 1 grammer around 11 inches, the 17" out performed everything, and it outperformed the Z14 or equaled it more or less with all 5 nuggets I tested. Granted, a very small test of limited scope.

My 0.07 gram bit, being spongy, crystalline, and presumably high in silver as it came from a pocket, didnt really hit very hot on any coils including the 10" so it's hard to say on the micro dinks how the 17" did, both it and the Z14 sounded off rubbing the coil, but neither could hit it at 1cm. As you have seen, a flatter, denser nugget of the same weight will scream at 1cm though, so take with a grain if salt. But the performance on a similar composition nugget of 0.18 grams at 4 inches, the 17" started to sound sharper to me and over a bit larger area so it hits stuff small enough that I will still pursue it at least and that's all I needed to know.

I'd have to go rewatch my recordings as my memory is fading by now. But on the 5 grammer at 16 inches (also porous, with quartz, semi crystalline) the z14 was almost silent, i could suss out a signal if I knew it was there, while still a really strong target on the 17". I felt as if I could lift the coil 2 to 4 inches above and still get a diggable signal but it was impossible for me to measure exactly. The 17" spiral impressed me a lot with all around sensitivity and a good low end depth punch for 1 gram and bigger, and it was only about 150 grams heavier than the Z14. The 12" spiral impressed me as a slightly hotter, slightly lighter (100 grams, cant remember exactly) slightly smaller Z14 all around replacement coil. Still unsure how it does on salt with the spiral windings, thinking going to some alkali flats around here next weekend and comparing to the Z14. The spiral windings might offset the size decrease when it comes to salt, dunno.

If I could only buy one, for general use, so far it would be the 12" spiral. But the 17x12 seems pretty compelling if that one gets offered for sale. For covering old patches (not in salt) or working old flogged goldfields, the 17" strikes me as the best for my particular purposes in those areas.

I did a noise test using a sound meter and they were all more or less equal, within 1db, based on 2 minutes of average background noise. Which surprised me. The Z14 was the loudest, but not by much and I think it might have had the unfortunate luck of getting a lightning strike in its test. The 10" seemed to make a difference around power lines, but only if it was parallel to the ground, facing up all coils failed equally. I was surprised that overall the 17" wasnt observably louder than the others though when it comes to background EMI.

(Apologies for errors and typing, on my phone at work)

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Jason I have read that latest post three times (oops now two ago). Each time I learn something. Thank you for taking the time (our most precious commodity), for explaining your always-deeper-and-more-clever thinking for us lesser minds. There are a lot of talented posters in here and you are one of them. 

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Thanks Flak. I just have inordinate amounts of time to sit and think about these things, as all I do is work and prospect. Most others have something keeping them busy like...a real social life. ? I got no kids and my dog thinks I'm a bad conversationalist when the subject veers from treats and walks so I assault forum readers with walls of text hahaha

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There are two patch alternatives that may be worth thinking about. Right now I'm sure Minelab wouldn't consider them, but if enough GPZ owners asked for it, well who knows, since there is obviously a demand for coils and we are paying customers after all... So, I'm just going to throw them out there.

  • If the chip is software authenticated and not hardware authenticated in the control box, then we could ask Minelab to sell us a firmware patch that disables the chip authentication routine. It would be based on our unique GPZ serial # so that it could not be copied and used on any other machine so counterfeiting would not be any more possible than it is already. Further, ML could charge some reasonable fee for this patch, say $200, and that way they would make money off the aftermarket still even if they weren't selling licenses. It solves our need for coils without modifcations/patches, gives 3rd parties the ability to build and sell products we want, and it gives Minelab a new income stream. It seems like a win all around for everyone. Not to mention for dealers who would have a new hot product to sell when GPZ sales are petering off.

If that for some reason were not doable then:

  • Minelab sells a set number of ML chipped cables directly to the GPZ owner. Let's say 3 or 5 maximum based on a valid and registered GPZ serial #, and then no more. Again, it's not enough to allow a counterfeit market to thrive. And it solves everyone's problems. $100 a piece and the coil manufacturer could subtract that from the price of a coil since they are not making a cable themselves anymore (you would mail them the ML cable to install onto your new coils), and opening the market up to a lot more sales on top of that.

Both could be done with some clause that says "warranty is no longer valid if you do this" if it would make ML feel better about what they think is a coil that doesn't meet their personal (and unstated, unpublished) standards. And that too would go with the unique GPZ serial # for tracking. And it doesn't matter for many people anyways since their warranties are already no longer valid. It'd be like unlocking or jailbreaking your cellphone.

It kills me to suggest paying ML even more after we paid this much already for a detector that clearly (to me anyways) only appears to cost around $500 to manufacture. Especially since ML didn't come through on a promise making their own coil selection and I understand that argument completely. But there appears to be an impasse - and impasses require compromise, so if we're willing to give some, maybe Minelab would be willing to give a little too? If they are open to compromise then we can create a solution for everyone.

If on the other hand, Minelab makes it clear they won't even accept a compromise...well then. I guess we know where they stand in that case, and where our sympathies should lay when they complain about counterfeiting or anything else we are subsidizing personally with the $10,700 price tag that many of us paid, and even still with the $8,000 MSRP. But it's time we know one way or another IMO. That's where I stand personally. I want to know.

Maybe they have a better idea than mine that would work. Or maybe they give a tangible reason for people on the fence to wait for another product. But it's time for some communication.

So, if there really are enough people interested in getting aftermarket coils - ones that would not require cutting or anything else, maybe we can give them a chance, bombard them with calls so they have to respond with something, and see what they say. I personally am getting kinda tired of guessing and wondering what ML thinks since they never say anything, I think it's time to poke the giant and make it give us a response one way or another so we can go from there. It's more than clear they aren't going to respond if someone doesn't make them... Companies are accountable to wallets, and people are commonly able to get much more massive, monolithic companies in the US to respond with enough people asking the same question.

What do people think about this? Good idea? Bad idea? Don't care enough either way?

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Email bombardment!

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Email would probably be the better option to start, just to be polite. That way they would definitely know what people think and wouldn't feel obligated to respond on the fly or take a thousand calls.

First though, I'm just curious if there really are enough people out there to really drive the point home to ML. I have no idea how many GPZ's were sold so I have no reference frame. Also, most people I meet in the field with a GPZ are not on the forum so its hard to communicate with them and I suspect most don't even know there is another coil option out there now either. If it's really only 10 or 15 of the loudest among us, then I guess ML is probably quiet for a reason, because we aren't big enough to matter. But if it's a large percentage of the GPZ owners, they would have to listen.

Was just kinda curious, I'm writing to them either way since I don't expect them to act off my forum posts alone. But wanted to see what others thought as I was gathering my thoughts.

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jase I bet there are less than 50 ZED owners in the USA who even care....

 and “ us”Aussies don’t give a crap about a bunch of whingin’ ?Yanks!!!!!

Lololol 

?

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Cool, cool. Stoicism doesn't land a nation on the moon though. :biggrin: 

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Well it might just be me and Jason but I am sure we could raise a ruckus :)   

As for emailing ML, I have done this on two occasions.  Both times I was thanked for the information and assured that they were doing everything they could.  And yet, nothing has changed.  All I have seen is  ML focusing more on VLF machines.  It's not that they do not have the engineers, it's that they are not allocating their time for what we want because it does not fit into their marketing strategy.  But... I am happy to send out another email stressing our concerns. 

I *do* think the people on this forum could make a difference.  Just about any thread with Xcoil in it, gets 1000+ reads.  If half of those are GPZ users, we should be able to make an impact.  Jason's point is valid.  But we need to be contacting the same person.

I used to contact this person: (But I am not even sure if this is a good contact anymore)

Anyone else have a better contact??

Bill Stirling
Global Product Manager

Minelab Electronics Pty Ltd  | 2 Second Ave, Mawson Lakes, SA 5095 
T: +61 8 8238 0828 | F: +61 8 8238 0890 | M: +61 420 442 785 | E: bill.stirling@minelab.com.au

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I think Bill left after ML moved their marketing HQ to Chicago. Not positive, but I remember him saying something like that when I was communicating with him too about various subjects.

Unfortunately anyone I ever talked to at ML seems to be gone now so not sure who to contact, but I'll find out.

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    • By kiwijw
      Saturday morning Mrs JW & I packed up the caravan & headed off to goldfields afar. Having got the caravan all set up & sorted we headed off to see the farmer to let him know we were about for the weekend. I hadn't been over this way for a while so it was good to have a catch up with him. Where I wanted to go to try the X coils he told me that they had done a poisoned carrot drop by helicopter for rabbit control & it might pay to keep away from that area. Bugger. So we did. Which left me to go where I had already been over a few times with the X coils & that area had now dried up for me. I did try again but no joy. Other areas I went over I got sick of digging shotgun pellets. Bloody rabbits. I tried one more area before dark & managed one small bit. I didn't even get a picture of it as I had left the phone in the wagon & couldn't be bothered going back for it. It was one of those imagined type signals but there was something about the first little hint of 'was that a signal'? Not always being there I questioned it. But you know how sometimes you think you heard something very slightly that sounded a bit different to a bloody shotgun pellet. Even after a few scapes it still wasn't always there but I was sure I had heard something. I laid into the dig a bit more & then the signal came to life & it was a small bit of gold down in the schist bedrock. That was it though.
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      Went up to investigate the area I wanted to get into. Damn....there was a helicopter loading up with more carrots out in the paddock. Bugger. So we went for a bit of a drive & on heading back past where the helicopter had been filling up we saw the helicopter flying off into the distance & obviously heading off. So I decided to go into an old turned over gully further down from where the helicopter activity had been. It was a gully that had dried up on the gold take for me with the Zed & ML 14" coil. On driving over the paddocks the carrot drop was obvious. So to were the bloody rabbits. On getting to the gully the carrots were not as prolific. But during the course of the day detecting I could see that the rabbits had had a good go at the carrots & there was just small shredded remains here & there of carrots.
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      Mrs JW sitting up in the wagon. The grass was still a problem in the old workings. I have been hugely spoiled in the past & had the pleasure of detecting in here many times with no grass at all. Even with the Zed & ML 14" coil which did get me a few bits & pieces.

      Gold it was, small but.

      Then further down the same throw out pile.

      Note the carrot. And not a Garrett Carrot.?

      Another tiny bit of gold. Smaller than a pellet.

      I stuck to detecting close to the gully bottom they had dug out as there was a bit of bedrock showing. Hard to see in the photo but under the detector is the bed rock & I got a faint signal to the edge of the bedrock. On digging down the signal improved & was coming from a drop off point of that bedrock.

      At the low point I was into rotten crumbly schist. Signal booming I was 100% sure this was going to be gold.

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      I took this next photo as I guessed it was about the same spot as the photo of me with the brush cutter which was about 4 years ago when I cut out a heap of wilding thyme bushes.

      Looks like they haven't grown back....yet

      Not far from that last piece another signal down in the rotten schist bedrock. Note all the rabbit poo.

      Small gold again

      Just kept on coming

       

      Another almost imagined signal that had me investigate. Livened up at a bit of depth & down into the rotten schist bedrock.

       

      You can see the beauty of the smaller coil for getting in among those thyme bushes that ML 14" doesn't have a hope of doing. Note to up in the back ground how the wilding thyme bushes takes over valuable grazing land.

       

       

       

      A very thin flat flake

      Things then dried up for me & I went over to a couple of throw out piles that were away from this main run of workings & where I had snagged a few bits with the 3000 & the 4500 but nothing later with the Zed. They was no bedrock & the throw out piles where of clay & not down to the rotten schist. I wasn't liking my chances & decided that after going over these piles I would call it quits.
      I got a nice signal that lived down past the first couple of scrapes.

      Wasn't holding my breath as the soil was still pretty loamy but just getting into a bit of a colour change when the signal had moved.
      Ha...well I'll be buggered.

      Biggest bit of the day. I then got on to a bit of a roll.

      That nice colour change again. Rusty clay material.

      Out popped this small bit.

      And another from the same dig on checking my scrape out pile before back filling.

      Right beside a rabbit burrow I got a signal that lived on down quite deep.

      My final sassy bit for the day before calling it quits.

      All up 16 pieces

      For just under 1.5 grams

      Loving this coil.
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      JW ?
    • By kiwijw
      Hi guys, Last Sunday Simon & I headed back to the area where we were at a month ago where I had a some success with the Zed & X coil 10 x 9

      We just carried on from where we left off last time all be it over ground I have hammered over the years & even with Simon we have been over it numerous times. Simon with different detectors & me with the Zed & ML 14" coil but not the X coils this far over. Simon was back on his 4500 & NF Evo coil but he knocked his sensitivity down to 13 to try to eliminate getting so many shot gun pellets. Seemed to work well for him, so on this rare occasion I got more than him.
      My first signal wasn't too long in coming. I was targeting the cracks & drop off shelf areas where there is usually a crack that gold could have dropped into. First signal was at the base of just such a little ledge drop off & schist fracture in the bed rock. note the grass growth. This isn't usually like this but I don't think the sheep are are allowed to graze in here any more. I said to Simon that if this is the case then detecting in here will get impossible as the grass really takes hold & makes it impossible to get the coil on to the ground & of course the grass loves the cracks & crevices where the roots can take hold in the deeper ground. 

      The signal had moved & was in that crack.

      Small though.

      But no catch & release.
      Carried on & a 2nd signal came in exactly the same type situation. A little schist drop off ledge.

      I actually wish I took a picture from when I first got the signal before disturbing the ground. So you could have worked out the depth. But I scraped away the dirt until I was down to the lower ledge of the schist bedrock before taking a picture. You can see where the height of the dirt was. Virtually right up to the top of that bedrock where the moss & lichen is growing. Note too the little crevice coming to light. The signal was booming but still down in that crack. 

      I had the pointy end of the pick as far as it would get into that crack & the signal was still down in there. I just knew it was going to be gold.

      I looked around for a long thin stick but no joy there. In a last ditch effort I positioned the pick with the handle 90 degrees to that rock face, which gave me the narrowest part of the pick to drag sideways along the crack to try to move the target. It wasn't easy but I finally managed to move it & get it out. 

      It made me work for it but bingo. Out it was.

      I could have sworn for the depth of the original signal that it was going to be bigger than that.
      Again on the edge of a schist drop off I got another signal. Note how the grass favors those schist crevice areas of deeper ground.

      Again in the corner edge at the bottom of that drop off.

      Another sassy bit of gold.

      No record breakers.
      I then hit a shot gun pellet grave yard which was driving me nuts. Pellet after damn pellet. One scrape & they had moved. I should have known better than to persevere with those type signals. Another signal, one scrape & it had moved.

      I hesitated about retrieving this one, but I did.  And was rewarded for doing so.

      Smaller than a pellet even.
      At this point Simon came up to have a look & to swap over to his Nox 800. He lasted about 10 minutes with that as the pellets drove him crazy. He went back to the 4500 & manged to snag a bit of gold. I wandered away & had a bit of a dry spell. I was hoping for another piece before I stopped for a coffee break & a bite to eat. It took a while to come & we were having the old sleety/rain showers coming through. When I got a nice little signal.
      It was down a wee bit & ended up being in a little hollow in the schist bed rock. It didn't take long for the little hollow to fill with water as it was in a natural small gutter run off. Hence why I detected down this little depression in the ground. 

      Small bit of gold it was. Well...not the smallest of the day.

      I then stopped for my well earned coffee. While having my coffee I checked my phone, which was very iffy with its signal. Blow me down, a message from Steve H. So I gave a quick reply stating what Simon & I were up to. I had 5 bits at this stage & Simon one. Simon at this point wandered up for a coffee & a bite to eat as well. After our break I headed down to where Simon had started detecting. I saw a lot of over turned rocks & slabs of schist. Just below one of his area I got a good little signal.

      You will notice up the right edge of the photo turned over slabs of schist from Simon. I was detecting those two cracks you can see with the grass growing in them. No surprise to me that I got a signal at the start of that one where the detector is.
      It wasn't a bad piece either. My biggest for the day.

      Simon saw me taking photos & asked if I got one there. I replied that I had & he came down to see if it was an area he had been over & hadn't got. I think he was satisfied he hadn't detected that spot. My reply was, Why not? Considering those cracks were right there. Any way. That was the last one for along spell. I did get one more but no pic of that. We called it quits as we had a bit of a walk to get back to Simon's vehicle. Due to the damp conditions, Simon's vehicle wasnt ideal to have brought in here. We had to park up further back from where we would normally. The wet conditions had made the glacial silt like grease & we had actually pushed his vehicles limits getting to where we did. Despite being 4 wheel drive his tires weren't up to it. On the way out we slipped of the track into the gutter. with me pushing we managed to get back on the track & it was a very slow slippery drive back to the main road & getting dark. We made it. Whew.....
      So all up for the Zed & X coil 10 x 9 was 7 little bits for not even one gram.

      This is my total of all detected gold from this area over the years. Just over two ounces & hundreds if not thousands of little pieces. The bigger bits seemed to have swum to the top.

      My pellet total that I brought home. There were many that I threw away down into no mans land that would never see a detector.

      Cheers.
      Good luck out there
      JW ?
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