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4 Ghost Town Hunts With The Vanquish 540


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1 hour ago, abenson said:

But I feel like it’s related to iron bias, I wish it could just be turned off.

I felt this way too when I first saw the Vanquish specs, until I realized with the latest Equinox firmware update that you really can't turn iron bias off on Equinox either, as Fe=0 is approximately equal to F2=4.  Someone had previously posted (perhaps you, I can't recall exactly) that iron bias low on Vanquish appeared to behave approximately equivalent to F2=2 (which is less than Fe=0).  The only way you can truly turn off iron bias on Equinox is to go to single frequency.  So I think the masking issues are probably dominated by the lower recovery speed of Vanquish, but I am sure the iron bias plays a role, too.  Speaking of single frequency, it would have been nice to go to single on Vanquish (say 10 khz)  of course that would be another cost driver.

Great ghost town report, btw.

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abenson: I’ve had the Vanquish 540 out on 4 ghost town hunts now and I wanted to give my thoughts on it’s performance in these challenging sites. 3 of the 4 hunts were at places where the items are on or near the surface. At those places the 5 x 8 coil was used. At the other site the items can be anywhere from surface to 12 inches deep because the town was located in a now plowed field. At that place, the 9 x 12 coil was used. In some cases other metal detectors were used to find some of the targets and compare signals with the Vanquish.

Getting to understand the Vanquish 540 is kind of fun.  It's also kind of frustrating because you would have thought they would have had some prototypes units in the hands of knowledgeable evaluators to isolate design flaws, then fix them prior to production.  Obviously, it doesn't seem like they did that.  When I got my 540 I mounted the 5X8 DD (mainly because I like the looks of that coil) and spent about 10-15 minutes checking out the settings and differences between the 3 default search modes.  By then I knew it had one design glitch that annoyed me.

Then,  I took it to a CCC Camp / Japanese Internment Camp location,  then a German & Italian POW Camp site, and finally out to a Ghost Town with even more iron debris that the first places.  The only coil I used for those sites was the 5X8 DD.  I bought the Vanquish 540 knowing that it had limitations since it lacked a selectable frequency option and also lacked a Ground Balance feature.    I determined some of the strong points about it, then sent it off to Minelab USA to see if the service technicians could do anything about the design glitch.

 

abenson: The Vanquish set at high iron bias does a great job at discriminating out surface bottle caps and other flat tin where single frequency metal detectors struggle. First site I went to I only used the Vanquish with the 5 x 8 coil, coin mode, high iron bias, horse off, sensitivity at 2 below max. The site is loaded with bottle caps and tin cans, I could see them on the surface in many areas. I hunted for 3 hours and only found a zinc mason jar lid, a large brass ring about the size of a pocket watch, two deep soda cans, the type with aluminum top and tin sides and a few other modern things like a pull tab and  modern penny found on the surface. Made me wonder how much I walked over because everything was either on the surface or big.

I used all three of the default mods in the first hour I had it to note the differences, and found that use of the Horseshoe button to accept all Disc. segments was useless to use in any terrain with rough-textured ground that had rocks, davits, holes, bumps, furrows or voids of any kind as it resulted in a lot of falsing.  Note, too, that I live in far Eastern Oregon and the places I search are comprised of high mineralized ground which adds to the annoyance.  Turn the Horseshoe function 'Off' and the annoying glitch goes away.  Also, I run with the Sensitivity at the highest setting and reduce it only if there is EMI or some necessary reason to do so.  With the right mode and Disc. settings, it does a very good job when it comes to handling Bottle Caps and a good share of the problem ferrous junk.

 

abenson: At the other 2 sites, even with the small coil on, the Vanquish really struggles on targets in carpet of nails. This shouldn’t be a surprise. With the other metal detectors (I had along with small coils) targets could be detected from multiple directions. The Vanquish on a good amount of the targets could only see the target in one direction and in some cases couldn’t see the target at all. I had several targets I could see on the ground surrounded by nails but couldn’t get the Vanquish to lock onto them. I fell like if you only worked an area from one direction you would probably walk over about 50% of the good targets with the Vanquish. Not saying the Vanquish is bad, it just isn’t the right choice for a trashy ghost town. However, on a positive note. I did have one signal that the other metal detectors ID'd in the coin range and I thought for sure I had a dime or quarter. The Vanquish gave a broken tone and wouldn’t lock on, I thought crap, too much iron around for the Vanquish to pick out this good signal. Surprise, it was a flat piece of tin about the size of a half dollar. No coins found at either of these sites. Found suspender clips, watch parts, buttons, scraps of brass, etc.

And if you're finding suspender clips, watch parts, buttons and scraps of brass, it shows the Vanquish 540 has the ability to also respond to coins, trade tokens, sheep ear tags and all sorts of desired small non-ferrous stuff.  It just wasn't your day or the right site.  Unfortunately, you used a term we all seem to use, but there isn't a defined descriptions we can all identify with, and that is "a carpet of nails."  I generally spend the bulk of my hunt-time in dense Iron Nail contaminated places, and along with my Nail Board Performance test I also use three or four other  'Test Scenarios' that make use of 1-Nail, - Nails or 4-Nails to evaluate the performance of both a detector and a coil by duplicating encounters I have made afield through the years.

In some testing I found the 540 to do a very good job or responding to a coin and even providing a proper numeric VDI response for that coin, but in some other testing as well as hunt-site work, the 540 does have some drawbacks, at least when compared to my two top picks for Relic Hunting dense Iron nail contaminated conditions.  Those are my Nokta CoRe w/'OOR' DD and Nokta Relic w/5" DD. (I'll demonstrate that when I see you at the WTHO the first of June.) 

I do like the 5X8 DD, and I really like the balance and feel of the Vanquish 540, the features/functions it has, and I'm satisfied with what it can do for me and my applications.  MInelab still has my unit and I tried all week to contact them with at least 5 calls each day, only to get a 'Leave a Message' recording ... so I did.  My first call was answered and the gal was very courteous and helpful ... but now I'm wondering about the service.  I have no doubt that they will likely say the problem is all in software and three's nothing they can do about it, and I was prepared for that.  But the 'glitch' is easy to work around.

 

abenson: At the site with deeper targets is where the gap between the Equinox and Vanquish become more apparent, and rightfully so. Vanquish settings-Coin mode (relic mode is worthless in my mineralized soil), horseshoe on, max sensitivity, low iron bias. Equinox settings-Park 1, sensitivity 22, iron bias 0, recovery 4, horseshoe on, 50 tones. The amount of iron junk at this site is moderate with good targets mixed in at various depths. I found 12-15 targets at this site with the Equinox and went over them with the Vanquish. All the targets that were co-located next to iron and less than 7 inches deep, both the Equinox and Vanquish saw (a least from one direction) and gave a good ID. I got several like 5 or 6 that were too deep for the Vanquish to ID and one gave absolutely no tone at all on the Vanquish, it was a small button at 7 inches. Other items found were large buttons, small buttons suspender clips, scrap brass and lead, shotgun brass, etc.

I was out hunting yesterday at the old CCC/Internment Camp using the three modes to decide how I want to set up and 'save' my Custom mode settings.  The only thing to determine is the Default mode you prefer which determines the Depth and Recovery Times, then the user-choice of Disc. segments to Accept.  I double checked the use of the Horseshoe button a few times to confirm the annoying glitch, then went back to my Disc. settings.

I don't have an Equinox but have compared the V-540  performance against my XP ORX w/5X9½ HF coil, Nokta CoRe and Relic w. smaller coils and their 5X9½ DD, and a Tesoro Bandido II microMAX w/6" Concentric.  I do this to learn not just weaknesses of a device, but to better understand what it can do and identify the strengths it might offer me.  I had the same results you mentioned, too.  I found a lot of smaller-size, non-ferrous targets.  The "could-have beens" but no keeper coins or tokens.

But wait .... didn't I just say I am waiting for Minelab service department to finish checking out my vanquish 5e40 and sending it back to me, and then I stated I was out hunting the same days?  Yep, that's what I said, because I was so impressed with what the Vanquish 5e0 can do, and the comfortable weight and balance for me and my pain and hampered mobility, that I bought a 2nd 540 Pro Pack that arrived last Monday.

 I bought it because I like it for what it can do for me.

 I bought it so that I can keep the two available search coils mounted on their own unit for a quick-grab when I arrive at a site.

I bought it so that I can keep one of them in my vehicle at all times in my "Travel-Team."

And I bought it knowing that the 'design glitch' was  likely going to be a permanent design oversight.  Something we have to live with as it likely isn't correctable, although I hope they find a way to correct it.  Something they didn't figure out and correct before it went into production.

 

abenson: Without going into a bunch of detail, I’m starting to see some trends regarding the Vanquish. First, the Vanquish struggles with small low conductors that are deep or mixed with iron trash. Second, the Vanquish just seems to cut off at a certain depth. No glimpse of any numbers, very little up averaging, just straight out slashes across the screen with iron grunt or simply no sound at all. Most other metal detectors I use at least chirp and flash a number on deep targets. Now these could be related to my mineralized soil. But I feel like it’s related to iron bias, I wish it could just be turned off. In any case the Vanquish IMO is a good park and beach machine, comes up a little short as a relic and ghost town machine. Could also be used to scout areas out and cherry pick the good signals then follow up with a better detector later. Still better than most other metal detectors in it’s price range though.

I’m headed to another ghost town with it and some other metal detectors tomorrow. This time I’ll try and shoot some video and show what I’m talking about.

I don't have a problem with the High / Low Iron Bias option, although in many places I don't find either choice all that useful.

You pointed out the main reason I wanted to have the Vanquish in my Regular-Use Detector Outfit, and that is to keep the handy 5X8 DD coil mounted and use the V-540 as a 'Scouting Unit'.  I have also used it for some "Cherry Picking" around the local p-ark Picnic Area that abounds in Bottle Caps and a lot of modern trash.

What I Wish They Would Have Done .. or  ... Would Do:  Eliminate the 'All Metal accept' Horseshow Button.  It is very easy to select one of the three factory default modes, Park, Relic or Jewelry (our USA spelling) and quickly make the changes we want to Accept the number of lower-range Disc. segment ... even to accept All of them to potentially accept all Ferrous and Non-Ferrous targets.  We can also make that setting decision in the preferred default mode and SAVE that setting and performance in the Custom mode.

Then, use that button as a Ground Grab feature to bob the coil and use an automated Ground Balance function.  That would take care of the ground environment we are hunting, and  .. if done right ... would eliminate any circuitry designed default in software..  That means, if done right, it would eliminate the design 'glitch' is has.  And my 2nd Vanquish 50 has the exact same performance and design glitch as the one I want Minelab to return (fixed, if possible).

Okay, so you're wondering, "What is the 'glitch?'

Here it is:  It relates to a default Ground Balance for the different modes as the Vanquish has a 'fixed' GB.  Either an internal trimmer or more likely handled in software, but ...

In the Coin and Jewelry modes, if you active the Horseshoe button to Accept all Disc. segments, then bob the search coil up-and-down from 6" to about 1", especially in a more mineralized environment, you will notice a 'Beep' on the DOWNSTROKE of the coil towards the ground.  This is an indication of a Too-Positive Ground Balance behavior.

But if you select the Relic mode, active the Horseshoe button and bob the search coil, you will notice a 'Beep' on the UPLIFT of the coil as you pull it away from the ground.  A behavior related to a Too-Negative GB behavior.

If you activate the Horseshoe button in any mode and search over ground that is especially very mineralized; or search over dirt and rocks; or hunt an area where the coil is being lifted or lowered to go over weeds, sticks, clumps of anything, or covering uneven ground, especially if it is lumpy, uneven or has holes or furrows,  you are going to hear a lot of Low-Tone audio 'Beeps' caused by the imbalance.  If in Coin or Jewelry it will 'Beep' as you sweep over the top f a furrow or over a bump or hump of ground, and if in Relic it will do the opposite and 'Bee' when you sweep over a hole, depression or a furrow, etc.

You will think that a site is terribly littered with Low-Tone responding ferrous trash ... such as a "carpet of nails" ... when there might be none or only a few pieces of ferrous debris present.   Step out in a yard or a rock bead, or use some black asphalt that is often rather 'mineralized', and bob th coil with the Horseshoe button On and then Off.  You will notice the design glitch.  I discovered the differences in each mode in the first 10-15 minutes of checking out the V-540.

How I Deal With It: Simple.  I just do NOT use the Horseshoe button.  On my in-for-service Vanquish I used the Relic mode because that is the slower-sweep and deeper-detecting mode for more open areas with sparse targets.  I then  Accept ALL Disc. segments except the first two.  Then I hunt almost anywhere without the audible 'glitch' falsing all the time.  I like to hear Iron targets, or most of them, and it has been working well when I have re-hunted the places where I was very annoyed from the audio caused by the default glitchy behavior.  That is the unit that will keep the 9X12 DD mounted to best handle the more open / sparse-target areas.

On my 2nd V-540, I will keep the 5X8 DD mounted to better handle the trashier places with more targets encountered.  For that I will use the default Jewelry mode because it seems to have more of a blend of quick-response and recovery of the Coin mode but just a little bit of behavior of the Relic mode.  Again, I will Accept ALL of the Disc. segments except the first two.

Note that when you use a factory designed mode and then SAVE the Disc. settings, it also saves the  rest of the mode functions.  You can also tell that by checking the ground falsing behavior using the Horseshoe button.  Out of the box my Vanquish models had a 'positive' behavior like the Coin and Relic mode.  When I used the Relic mode and selected the more open Disc. pattern and Saved it, Custom then demonstrated the Negative GB behavior of the Relic mode.

One final comment.  I have had three friend check their Equinox 800's using the Multi-IQ and with the 'default' ')' GB and activate the Horseshoe function and they also had similar misbehavior.   THEN, they did either an Automated GB or a Manual GB and ... the falsing glitch was gone.  One reason I won't use a '0' GB setting.  Always GB the Equinox.  Sadly, we can't with a Vanquish.

Sorry to ramble.  If my post is too lengthy or annoying, let me know and I'll try not to in the future, and tell Steve H. and he can scold me.

Monte

 

 

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1 hour ago, Monte said:

By then I knew it had one design glitch that annoyed me.

Ground grab would be great, but not at the expense of the horseshoe button, I really don't want to have to set up two machines with separate custom search profiles just to be able to use a custom disc pattern for two modes.   I would rather they program to use a long press on it or another button instead.  Because if they actually do fix the GB issue, that should fix AM and being able to selectively cut it in or out on the fly would be convenient in some situations than repeatedly altering the disc profile for the search modes you couldn't store in the custom slot. 

BTW, I now realize why they didn't throw in a single fixed frequency mode.  Because it would force them to include a ground balance feature.  ML gets away with the "0" GB fixed reference setting by exploiting Multi IQ's ability to infer the ground phase.  This only works up to an extent, then it is appropriate to do a manually initiated GB.  Single frequency cannot compensate for a the fixed GB reference.

Anyway, I doubt any of this is going to happen as it moves Vanquish further away from ML's cost and simplicity objectives and with only about $150 separating the Equinox 600 from the Vanquish 540, I suppose ML reckons that that if you want and need the features described (e.g., ground grab, single frequency), than users should just spring for an Equinox.  What ML is NOT realizing, is the Equinox 600 would be the right answer provided they had the foresight and/or lack of greed to have made the Vanquish coils cross compatible with EQX or at least made Equinox compatible versions of those coils.

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Great write up Monte! I'm glad you chimed in as I know you've been doing a lot of testing yourself with Vanquish. It's good to have multiple views about its performance. We don't agree on everything but that's what's nice about more than one person's report. Things about the unit you don't like don't necessarily bother me and vice a verse. It gives someone considering a purchase the opportunity to evaluate and see how others use the machine and what types of sites the Vanquish excels in and comes up short in.

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On 3/7/2020 at 10:29 AM, Chase Goldman said:

What ML is NOT realizing, is the Equinox 600 would be the right answer provided they had the foresight and/or lack of greed to have made the Vanquish coils cross compatible with EQX or at least made Equinox compatible versions of those coils.

I guess we are constantly reminded that as much as we want to consider ourselves, the consumers (and payers) as important, respected, and listened-to contributors, we are simply (and particularly in the eyes of at least some manufacturers) sheep to be herded to the troughs.

 

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