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Vanquish Updateable Or Not?


67GTA

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4 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

Regarding the Vanquish, I am with you Monte.  ML was a hair's breadth away from completely knocking it out of the park - three things would have made this detector truly great and should not have increased the price one iota - 1) ground grab/or manually adjustable GB (Simplex has it - so this is not a cost driver), 2) Replace the custom mode slot with a single frequency mode - at say 10 khz,  and 3) simply make the 3 Multi IQ modes remember their custom discrimination settings after power down, just like the Equinox does, obviates both the need and limitations of a single custom mode slot.

Would like to see some kind of sw fix for the GB issue, but I doubt it will come to pass because what you really need is ground grab or a manual ground balance setting and I don't see that happening without some accompanying change to the physical user interface.  Hope I am wrong.

PS - I also want to say that while ML may not have "hit it out of the park", it IS a helluva detector for the price and the included coils make the 540 PP worth the trip.

I agree with you that they came so close with the Vanquish 540 Pro Pack.  Easily out-classed anything in the lower to mid-price range from White's and Garrett, and also bettered most of those from FTP with features and in-the-field performance.  But anyone who's used the Nokta / Makro Simplex + knows it still has features and adjustments that surpass the Vanquish. 

I thought the same as you did.  Add Automated or Manual GB and more adjustments for a single frequency for the 'Custom' program slot.  I'd be fine with 10 kHz, 12 kHz or up to 15 kHz for a single frequency.   Physical packaging and dual coils and the excellent ML-80 headphones in the 540 Pro package4 is absolutely one of the best values on the market today.  Both of mine make a good 'fit' in my Detector Outfit for many uses.

Let's hope Minelab sees fit to make a GB upgrade for the Vanquish series to remedy the design glitch, especially since it is definitely their fault since it was released that way.

Monte

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49 minutes ago, phrunt said:

I've been trying to find out what this ground balance design glitch is you're talking about and can't find any information on in? Are you able to elaborate? I know it means nothing to me as I never need to ground balance any detectors anyway but I'd like to know exactly what you're talking about when you say there is a design fault with it's ground balance.

If they do release a firmware update for it I don't think I will want it as the likelihood is with it being a fixed ground balance unit they'll be making it balance better in worse soils, in turn possibly making my performance worse in mild soils.  Maybe they just need to make a firmware update where you hold in the backlight button to perform a ground balance or something, that'd keep people happy and I'm sure they can do that.   As it stands I like my Vanquish how it is.

This is what happens when I am say hunting in default Jewelry Mode and I want to check a possible iron target by pressing the horseshoe button. From a previous post........

The only adjustments I have needed to make on my Vanquish 440 are slight sensitivity adjustments and making my Custom program be identical to pressing the all metal horseshoe button except for rejecting -9, -8 and -7 so that I don't get ground feedback in my mineralized dirt. If I'm in stock Jewelry mode and just press the horseshoe button to check for iron I get so much low negative number ground feedback when the coil approaches the ground that it is hard to hear the possible iron target. Rejecting -9,-8 and -7 clears up the ground feedback=not properly ground balanced, and still lets me hear some iron responses so I can decide to dig or not on deeper targets.

 

Jeff

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8 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

This is what happens when I am say hunting in default Jewelry Mode and I want to check a possible iron target by pressing the horseshoe button. From a previous post........

The only adjustments I have needed to make on my Vanquish 440 are slight sensitivity adjustments and making my Custom program be identical to pressing the all metal horseshoe button except for rejecting -9, -8 and -7 so that I don't get ground feedback in my mineralized dirt. If I'm in stock Jewelry mode and just press the horseshoe button to check for iron I get so much low negative number ground feedback when the coil approaches the ground that it is hard to hear the possible iron target. Rejecting -9,-8 and -7 clears up the ground feedback=not properly ground balanced, and still lets me hear some iron responses so I can decide to dig or not on deeper targets.

 

Jeff

Ok if I understand well this issue occurs when using the All metal/horseshoe button and only on high mineralized soils.

Same as Simon , I never had this issue but the soils are rather low to moderately mineralized here in France  ...

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phrunt: I've been trying to find out what this ground balance design glitch is you're talking about and can't find any information on in? Are you able to elaborate?

Monte: Sure I can.  It's easy hen someone understands 'Ground Balance', especially as we (us older characters) learned back in the early days when it was introduced with  recreational metal detector in '74/'75.  At first we had models that were an All Metal mode ONLY and you had to manually adjust the Tuner control to establish a working audible Threshold level, then use a separate control to adjust to compensate the ground signal, to balance to or ignore the ground.  Then you'd search while listening to a Threshold audio hum and the device would respond to ALL metal, be them ferrous or non-ferrous.

In the soon-to-follow years they added a second 'mode' which was a conventional TR-Disc. that lacked ground compensating circuitry and you had to learn to use it like the earlier TR and TR-Disc. models  as it was effected by the ground mineral make-up.  In '77 / '78 we got our first VLF-Disc. or Ground Compensating Discriminate models that required a brisk sweep to handle the ground signal and target signal, and in all cases the operator had to adjust for, and listen to, a Threshold audio hum.

In '82 / '83 we aw our first motion-based Discriminating models that featured a 'silent-search' function in the Disc. mode, and more and more consumers started adopting that type of audio behavior.  They also started to want or prefer a silent-search Discriminate mode, and also now, some 38 years later, more often favor a detector that was a "turn-on-and-go" design, and that simply means a model with a pre-set Ground Balance so they wouldn't have to make any extra adjustments.  Another popular trend has been for many people to use more Discrimination and want to reject all Ferrous trash and a lot of the Non-Ferrous Disc. segments as well.

The Vanquish series, like many other makes and models produced these days, come with factory-preset Discriminate modes that have all of the Iron or Ferrous range rejected, and then some such as with a Coin Hunting mode, that also knocks out quite a bit of the Non-Ferrous range where a lot of modern-day trash will be rejected.

Then Minelab added the 'Horseshoe' button which is supposed to ACCEPT All metal targets, including the Ferrous range such as Iron nails, and much, much mode.  And here-in lies the problem.  If you are in the Coin mode or the Jewelry mode (using American spelling if you don't mind) and select the Horseshoe button to turn 'On' All Metal Accept, then bob the search coil toward and away from the ground from about 6" to ½" or so, you will hear an audio 'Beep' on the down-stroke of the coil as it approaches the ground.  That is an indication of a 'Positive' GB behavior.

However, if you are in the Relic mode and, again, activate the All Metal Mode 'Horseshoe' button, then bob the search coil, you'll note that the detector behaves as if it has a 'Negative' GB and you get a 'Beep' on the uplift of the coil away from the ground.

This causes a problem during a search as in those modes, and with the Horseshoe activated, the detector will Beep when swept over a depression, a hole or a void.  On the other hand, it could produce a false 'Beep' when swept over a hump or lump in the ground, over a rock or over any raised ground.  Often, some people simply think they are sweeping over a lot of iron nails and other iron debris when, in fact, there might not be any iron nearby and they are just hearing the falsing caused by the GB being too positive or too negative.

I like the Vanquish 540 and own two, and in my Custom program I keep each one 'Saved' to Accept ALL of the Disc. segments except the first two.  That way I can hear the Iron Nails and most Ferrous trash so I can work around it to try and unmask a keeper or two, and not hear the ground falsing glitch.

 

phrunt: I know it means nothing to me as I never need to ground balance any detectors anyway ..

.Monte:  Why do you say you "never need to GB" any detectors?   IF the detector design isn't preset, then a proper GB can hekp enhance performance.  Of course some makes and models, might feature an external GB control, Manual or Automated, but it is sonly a function in the Threshold-based All Metal mode because that particular model relies on an internally preset GB for the motion-based Discriminate mode.

 

phrunt: I just know my T2 default ground balance is 90, even though I don't need to ground balance as I can pump the coil fine with no ground feedback that 90 seems to be a very conservative ground balance setting I assume for bad soils so depth isn't the same and if I do ground balance depth improves.  I am concerned if they modify the Vanquish fixed ground balance to suit hotter soils I will lose some of the raw guts it's got now giving me exceptional depth on it that I like.  I don't like things being dumbed down to suit people in worse conditions if it messes with me.

Monte: I've used the Tek. T2 series since introduced in 2006 and they are an example of exactly what I am referring to.  That model does have a 'default' GB setting of '90' and it does have the Automated or Manual GB control ... but that only functions in the Threshold-based All Metal mode.  The Discriminate mode relies on an internally preset GB and your GB adjustment doesn't make any significant change in the Discriminate mode GB.

'Depth' is only one function associated with a proper GB.  Another is a detector's ability to handle the combined Target Signal as well as Ground Signal.  Such as being able to 'detect' or positively respond to a very high-conductive target.  I use a short stack of US 90% Silver Coins to evaluate a detector for the ability to detect ir or let's say find it.  I have 5 US Walking Liberty Half-Dollars stacked on top of a 1922 US Peace Dollar, all bare metal so they are touching each other to simulate a small 'stash' of hidden coins.

In the  silent-search Discriminate mode, your T2 will NOT respond positively to that stack of silver coins and produce a good Audio response or come close to a proper numerical VDI read-out.  Why?  Because the preset GB for the Discriminate mode is way too positive and 'wraps' to essentially reject that very high-conductivity sample.  And that is not even factoring in the soil or dirt signal to process.  Just a simple 'Air Test' and you'll see that the T2's have their own 'design glitch' where they have controlled the Discriminate mode's GB internally, but you don't hear it due to how they adjusted it.

With the Vanquish series, and a few other models that have been produced, it can be a matter of the preset GB being too Negative or too Positive that causes the described falsing in the Disc. mode, of the particular search mode, or how the working lower-end range of the All Metal Accept 'Horseshoe' settings is designed in relationship to the GB setting.

In my seminars, I use a Tesoro Bandido II µMAX model to demonstrate how a Too Negative or Too Positive GB adjustment can cause 'falsing' in the Discriminate mode that would be similar to the 'glitch' in the Vanquish series.  That's because the Manual GB control DOES have a direct adjustment function on BOTH the All Metal and motion-based, silent-search Discriminate modes.

 

phrumt: I do like the idea of making a button like the backlight button into a dual purpose button to perform a ground balance though, they can keep everyone happy then.

Monte: I also wowuld like to see a button-activated option for an Automated GB adjustment for ALL modes so that it could eliminate the errant GB design and thus the 'Horseshoe' button would be fully functional.  They could even have designed-I a Tracking GB function and controlled the limits of the GB range and not make it function too quickly.

 

phrunt: ... but I'd like to know exactly what you're talking about when you say there is a design fault with it's ground balance.

Monte: There you go, I am talking about a 'glitch' in the design of the All Metal acceptance range of the Vanquish that displays either a too positive or too negative effect based on the selected default search modes.

 

phrunt: If they do release a firmware update for it I don't think I will want it as the likelihood is with it being a fixed ground balance unit they'll be making it balance better in worse soils, in turn possibly making my performance worse in mild soils. 

Monte: They would be making the Vanquish 'better' regardless of the level of iron contaminated soil level anyone hunts in.  Most people do not hunt in a an All Metal accept mode, conventional or motion Discriminate, but some of us like to search old sites where we can listen for Iron Nails to be able to locate a sign of prior human activity, such as finding where old structures might have been.  Also, many people are like you and they don't understand 'Ground balance' or don't want to tinker with making a proper adjustment   One 'fix' for the design glitch is possibly easy.

 

phrunt: Maybe they just need to make a firmware update where you hold in the backlight button to perform a ground balance or something, that'd keep people happy and I'm sure they can do that.   As it stands I like my Vanquish how it is.

Monte: The 'easy fix' would be to do a firmware update that would be similar to my Custom mode Discrimination adjustment setting.  That is, change the 'Horseshoe' button activation so that it Accepted All of the Disc. segments except the first two.  That's how I adjust my two Vanquish models in the Custom mode so that it allows me to hear a positive response fro most common Iron Nails.  That should satisfy about any user of this 'affordably-priced' Vanquish model.  No need to add a selectable Automated GB function, just change the minimum ACCEPT range of the All Metal 'Horseshoe' feature. 

If it was the same as Accepting everything from the 3rd Disc. segment on up, rejecting only the first two segments, YOU wouldn't know the difference and most people would never know the difference.  No one would hear an errant behavior and, therefore, no one would perceive a design 'glitch.'

And as it stands right now for me, I also like my two Vanquish 540 Pro's because I have controlled their search behavior in their Custom modes be Accepting everything except rejecting those first two Disc. segments  Perfect? No.  Functional in real-world searches?  Yes, it is.  They should be able to do that in software and the units would otherwise be unchanged.

Monte

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23 hours ago, Monte said:

i

Then Minelab added the 'Horseshoe' button which is supposed to ACCEPT All metal targets, including the Ferrous range such as Iron nails, and much, much mode.  And here-in lies the problem.  If you are in the Coin mode or the Jewelry mode (using American spelling if you don't mind) and select the Horseshoe button to turn 'On' All Metal Accept, then bob the search coil toward and away from the ground from about 6" to ½" or so, you will hear an audio 'Beep' on the down-stroke of the coil as it approaches the ground.  That is an indication of a 'Positive' GB behavior.

 

Hi 

Actually I could reproduce this issue on my test box. On the JEWELRY mode , All metal activated , I have a beep on the down stroke and the screen displays -8 . This ground is a little mineralized , with the Equinox it showed a mineralization of +30 if I remember well ..

DSC02326.JPG

DSC02370.JPG

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26 minutes ago, palzynski said:

ith the Equinox it showed a mineralization of +30

That's just the relative ground phase to whatever reference Equinox is using.  You can't explicitly determine the mineralization from that number although it might roughly correlate to slight mineralization (i.e., a number much greater than zero might indicate high mineralization) non-mineralization factors also play into the ground phase number which can result in high ground phase numbers but not mineralization which impacts detector performance.  You need a detector with a mineralization meter/bargraph to determine explicit magnetite based mineralization levels.  XP Deus/ORX, the Tek T2, and Fisher F75 detectors as well as a few others have these meters on their panels.

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Sorry, I write through Google translator. If there is no technical possibility to implement soil balance at the hardware level, then it is possible to make a pre-set for heavy soils that will work only in user mode, this is suitable for 340 and 440 and 540. I think that I do not need to change the main programs, they are good, not only one is enough for soil with high salinity. Maybe there is a minelab service where can I write this sentence?
 

It is also good to make this user mode single-frequency with a low frequency of 5khz and a high value of iron bias for accurate identification of iron. But all this is optional, although it would be nice. The main thing is to make the soil balance for heavy soil. A single-frequency mode could additionally be done in the relic program of 440-540 models, which is intended for depth.

Also, in the user program 440-540 models, and the program all metals on 340 models could be made polyphonic, it can also be trashhold but not completely, it will turn out a completely different program with other search capabilities that will significantly expand the detector's capabilities. In general, all this can be realized in the mode of one user program, but for 440-540 I would like to use the 5khz single-frequency mode in the relic program. I would like to convey all this to the minelab employees.

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Minelab probably won't change the ground balance on these machines. They were meant to compete with the Garrett Ace series which also don't have ground balance capabilities. Probably need a better machine if you are dealing with difficult ground.

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41 minutes ago, 67GTA said:

Minelab probably won't change the ground balance on these machines. They were meant to compete with the Garrett Ace series which also don't have ground balance capabilities. Probably need a better machine if you are dealing with difficult ground.

You mean like the $250 simplex which does have ground balance?

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