Makro Kruzer Target ID Mineralization Not Happening

[Jeff McClendon]

I did a friend who is a small metal detector dealer a good deed last week (at least for him) by buying a used Makro Kruzer 14kHz detector from him so he could at least make a sale from his home business. I have always liked Nokta Makro products and I had a Multi Kruzer previously and really liked it but the Equinox came along...........and  so, I wanted to give the Kruzer another try. I already have a Racer 2 and really like a lot about it, especially its threshold based all metal mode, even though it suffers from the same issues as every other single frequency detector I have ever tried in the moderate to high mineralization in my area which is severe up averaging on what seems to me anyway to be shallow targets 3" to 5" inches deep. I hoped against hope that the Kruzer really was going to be somehow better than the Racer 2. Actually it is worse. I should have learned this lesson after trying dozens of otherwise great detectors with exactly the same results. So, I have tried a zillion settings combinations with so many detectors!!!! Don't feel bad Nokta Makro, you are definitely not alone meaning I get similar results with XP, FTP, Whites, Garrett, single frequency Minelab and Tesoro products. So that is just about everybody!

I was hoping I was doing something really stupid. I am perfectly capable of that.........

So here is a question I asked on another forum about the discrimination function built into the Kruzer and Anfibio. In my Kruzer manual it says....

"Note: DISC. setting works inversely proportional to depth up to level 15 in all modes. In other words, as the DISC. is increased up to 15, stability will increase but depth will be reduced and vice versa. Above 15 though, both depth and noise will increase"

I hunt in areas with lots of magnetite iron particles and high mineralization. I usually set my Kruzer discrimination level on at least 4 just to tone down the chatter and keep it from hitting every microscopic iron particle. It will really sort of get quiet at 10. According to the quote from the manual, am I losing a lot of depth by setting it at 10 opposed to setting it at 0 or default 3? Also, one drawback to using the Kruzer in higher mineralization (the mineralization graph is maxed out or one level away most of the time) is that the numerical target IDs are all over the place even on 3" to 5" good coin sized targets. So am I understanding that the stability mentioned in that quote refers to target ID stability? Would running a discrimination level from 10 to 15 along with raising the ISAT level a bit make coin and jewelry targets down to 6" deep have better target ID?

The answer to my question at least from my standpoint is that "it ain't happening" and nothing I have tried including all of the things in the manual don't help. 

Just for fun, instead of driving myself crazy doing tests in my test garden (the results unfortunately were painfully the same) I took the Kruzer to a local park and put my Vanquish 440 in my backpack. I did a little target comparison on wild targets. I was using the Kruzer in 4 tone mode with gain on 80, disc. on 7, ISAT on 0, Iron Volume on 2, Iron Tone Break at 10. I also had 3 tone set up in a similar way. I ran across a target that jumped around a lot between 70 to 84 on the Kruzer and pinpointed it at 4" using both modes.  It sounded pretty good and I figured it would be a beaver tail, corroded US zinc penny, a copper penny or even better a clad dime. I got out my Vanquish, fired it up and left it in absolutely stock Jewelry mode with the gain at about 3/4th. The Vanquish read 12-13, which is a low conductor US nickel, pull tab, can slaw or something gold if no iron is present. I checked the target for iron (none) and dug it. The target was a 3" deep US nickel. This happened over and over whether the target was a low or mid conductor.

Some complain about the Nox and Vanquish iron falsing. I got a low 90s signal on a shallow coin sized object on the Kruzer that was continuous as I circled the target. I hoped for a US quarter or silver object. No hint of iron at all on the Kruzer even at the edge of the coil. I grabbed the Vanquish and in Jewelry mode got a broken signal that came in between 18 and 25 with an occasional 38. Those jumpy numbers are usually a dead give away for an iron target on the Vanquish and Nox if the audio is crackly and drops out. I knew what the target was but dug it anyway. Rusty crown bottle cap at 4".  At least I know when there is iron in or around the target when I'm using the Equinox or Vanquish. 

I like Minelab detectors a lot. I would also love to be able to use and not waste my time and money on some beautiful detectors by other manufacturers. I guess I just need to move somewhere else.

thanks for reading and for any ideas you might have.
Jeff

[Steve Herschbach]

Now you know why I thought Multi-IQ was a game changer and why I cleaned house once I saw it in action. It simply works better in my ground, where I get a nice dime reading and dig an aluminum beaver tail when I use a single frequency machine. The best solution it would seem to me would be to stop thinking single frequency is the answer in your ground when it would seem pretty clear it is not. In some ground single frequency really is obsolete when it comes to discrimination. If you want something better, wait for the next version of Multi-IQ or maybe the NokMak Multi, whenever it appears. Or maybe even a Tarsacci. Single frequency by technological standards is ancient technology, so last century. Just sayin. 

The best use for single frequency in bad ground is for all metal nugget detecting, no discrimination, or at most ferrous/non-ferrous disc. Accurate non-ferrous target id in bad ground - not so much.

[kac]

I think if I was to buy a single frequency Kruzer it would be the 19khz. I seem to do much better with the heavy iron in my parts. The 14 khz I use occasionally in relic hunting usually in forest where there tends to be much less trash.

For the modes, 2 tone and deep mode work well for relics, 3 tone for coin and jewelry. I usually use all out non discrimination with isat 1-5 on 3 tone depending on the ground, isat on 1 for the other modes and iron vol on 2.

4 tone does help in isolating targets that are close together but I work it painfully slow or you have a jumble of tones.

The only disc I use is on 3 tone just to quiet it down but keep in mind 3 tone isn't as deep as the other modes. I kick the gain to 85 on that and if I get a fringe target I jump up to 2 tone or down to 4 tone to investigate. Curiosity usually makes me dig it anyways. With 3 tone I put the dic up until it just quiets down. Keep the gain at 85 max as it will start to blast the targets and on the stock coil I find the VDI bit jumpy when cranked too high. Usually isat 1 is fine but if it falses then kick it up a bit. Higher the isat you may lose depth.

I noticed on 2 tone 4 tone and deep that when you disc out the audio seems bit choppy. I find the audio smoother and since it as the fe volume it's easier to follow what is going on.

2 tone and deep mode you need to be just about touching the ground or it just chatters. Not sure if they just blast the Tx but if your off the ground it will be unstable. Also those modes work well with slow consistent sweeps.

I did notice that if you use disc at all you lose the iron audio on b-caps even on the tip of the coil. Not too big a deal as a flick of the mode you can tell right off.

One thing I don't use that much is the tracking, maybe I'm just old school but like to really check myself as I see the ground radically change and from my past experience in the areas it doesn't seem right. Tracking however is a must if you run Gen mode.

I haven't had any problem with beaver tails showing up too high, they always come in just at the lower gold range here. I usually ignore them but if the sound is short and falls off fast when I lift the coil I'll dig it. Aluminum seems to carry a signal further than gold with the same vdi#

Lastly Gen mode works nice but the vdi doesn't seem to have much depth if I was comparing it to AM mode with the AT Max.

[Jeff McClendon]

1 hour ago, kac said:

I think if I was to buy a single frequency Kruzer it would be the 19khz. I seem to do much better with the heavy iron in my parts. The 14 khz I use occasionally in relic hunting usually in forest where there tends to be much less trash.

I did notice that if you use disc at all you lose the iron audio on b-caps even on the tip of the coil. Not too big a deal as a flick of the mode you can tell right off.

Hi Steve and kac,

Just for anyone else reading this, the Makro Kruzer only comes in one single frequency model which is 14 kHz. The Anfibio does have a 14 and 19 kHz single frequency model.

I started this topic because of the somewhat cryptic quote from the manual about discrimination being inversely proportional in part of its range. I was hoping someone would help me understand that better and see if there was a way to stabilize target ID more.

Using zero discrimination where I hunt is not an option unless I run the gain down between 20 and 30 in any mode except beach which has a default of 15 for good reasons. Otherwise, the carpet of magnetite and broadband EMI will be impossible to penetrate in order to hear an actual target.

Definitely not bashing any detectors here. The Makro Kruzer is a wonderful single frequency detector and all the other brands I mentioned make excellent single frequency detectors for most places.........

Jeff

[Steve Herschbach]

In general there are only two ways to increase target id stability, ignoring the EMI issue. That is a wild card, especially silent EMI that only exhibits when a target is detected. Be sure and have a perfect ground balance, and reduce sensitivity.

Increasing discrimination can adversely affect sensitivity, so after 15 NokMak is applying secondary gain in an attempt to offset this. So if the machine gets unstable above 15 oddly enough it is even more important to reduce the gain.

Smaller coils can help.

The problem is target stability is achieved by reduced sensitivity which people interpret as meaning less depth, so I find that nine times out of ten getting target stability gets tossed out the door in the desire for more depth. It’s actually something the operator has control over, but it is a trade off.

In general “hot” machines are less stable.

 

[kac]

Like I mentioned if I was to buy the single frequency model after using the Multi Kruzer, I would choose the 19khz for much of my detecting over the 14khz. It seems to handle the mineralization pretty well here and we do have lots of iron in the NE.

As far as iSat, I tried running at 0 and had poor results. The machine was unstable. I have found starting at 1 and work my way higher if needed works fine and gives me better numbers. The machine seems to have an easier time locking in on targets with iSat on. If iSat is too high or Gain is too high >85 the numbers seem to lose their accuracy and I base this off of 3 tone mode as it is used for general detection and not relic specific or deep searching.

4 tone is not good in heavy trash but can work well to check for a target when listening in among close trash and multiple targets but you need to move the coil very slow to hear the tones change. I do find it too busy for general hunting.

In general the Kruzers have a lot of power going through that small coil and if you really need that much more depth on a regular basis a larger coil will give you that depth with more stability. I bought the MK over the Amphibio and Nox because of the power I can punch through that smaller coil when I need it and am able to poke around in areas that are difficult with a 11" coil or bigger. I don't run it flat out typically. In regular coin shooting gain of 80 and about max where the machine has good numbers. 85 is the brink where it is starting to overlaod like the Tejon has going past 10 on sensitivity. Just speaking from what I have learned so far using it.

 

[GB_Amateur]

15 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

...(Racer 2) suffers from the same issues as every other single frequency detector I have ever tried in the moderate to high mineralization in my area which is severe up averaging on what seems to me anyway to be shallow targets 3" to 5" inches deep.

Unfortunately I can't answer your questions, but your post has triggered some questions from me which I'm pretty sure you can answer.  I think you've answered them previously, but maybe repeating them here would lead others to have an idea or at least tell them why their experiences are different.

1) What is the Fe3O4 reading on the F75 and Gold Bug (family) typically for these soils?

2) My detecting in the Denver area parks has not been nearly as bad as you describe.  I'm thinking the parks I've hunted have had their dirt hauled in from somewhere else, or I'm just lucky in having hunted in the parts of Denver that have mild(er) soils.  (I seem to recall you saying that the mineralization there varies a lot.)  A couple I recall the names of are Rocky Mountain Lake Park at 46th & Lowell and Cheesman Park.

This afternoon I'm going to measure the Fe3O4 in my back yard test area with both the 5" and 7"x11" coils of both the F75 and Gold Bug Pro.  Ironically, in my test garden the TID of high conductor coins decreases with depth for the F75 with larger coils.  (I haven't tested much with the 5" coil.)

 

[Jeff McClendon]

2 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

Unfortunately I can't answer your questions, but your post has triggered some questions from me which I'm pretty sure you can answer.  I think you've answered them previously, but maybe repeating them here would lead others to have an idea or at least tell them why their experiences are different.

1) What is the Fe3O4 reading on the F75 and Gold Bug (family) typically for these soils?

2) My detecting in the Denver area parks has not been nearly as bad as you describe.  I'm thinking the parks I've hunted have had their dirt hauled in from somewhere else, or I'm just lucky in having hunted in the parts of Denver that have mild(er) soils.  (I seem to recall you saying that the mineralization there varies a lot.)  A couple I recall the names of are Rocky Mountain Lake Park at 46th & Lowell and Cheesman Park.

This afternoon I'm going to measure the Fe3O4 in my back yard test area with both the 5" and 7"x11" coils of both the F75 and Gold Bug Pro.  Ironically, in my test garden the TID of high conductor coins decreases with depth for the F75 with larger coils.  (I haven't tested much with the 5" coil.)

 

Hi GB_Amateur

The dirt where I detect is one bar from the highest level on the Makro Kruzer, F75, F19, Deus is 2/3 to 3/4 full and so is my ORX. It is all from the Denver Formation whether it is topsoil, hauled in or right from the formation itself. Anywhere you dig in West Denver that is not near the South Platte or Clear Creek you will hit dirt from this formation since it is between 600 and 1500 feet thick and consists of sandstone, coal shale, monzonite, basalt, tuft and volcanic ash from nearby volcanos and from even the Yellowstone Caldera from what I hear. In most places the undisturbed parts of the formation are from surface to 15ft below the top soil. If you are at a park like Rocky Mountain Lake Park, you are digging in sediments from Clear Creek. On the east side of Denver the sediments are a little different. Cheeseman Park used to be one of the city cemeteries. Mostly it was for poor people or unknowns. I have no idea what kind of dirt they hauled in to cover all of that up.

thanks,

Jeff

 

[Jeff McClendon]

Steve wrote:

"Increasing discrimination can adversely affect sensitivity, so after 15 NokMak is applying secondary gain in an attempt to offset this. So if the machine gets unstable above 15 oddly enough it is even more important to reduce the gain."

Thanks for this explanation Steve. That is what I thought the manual was trying to say and my brain was trying to comprehend. 

The topic you referenced is one of my favorites and has a typical "Awe Shucks" but exactly on point reply from our dear Fred..........

Thanks for all of your replies. I will try to make one of these nice Nokta Makros work as best I can and sell the other one.

Jeff

[Noah (FL)]

5 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

 

I started this topic because of the somewhat cryptic quote from the manual about discrimination being inversely proportional in part of its range. 

I have a MultiKruzer and played around with the disc settings a bunch with my deeper test targets due to the commentary in the manual about depth/noise in regards to the disc setting and was never able to discern any difference in depth due to disc settings.  Granted that our dirt in Florida is as mild as it gets for the most part. Also I rarely get use any discrimination with tone ID machines and the MultiKruzer is definitely better at unmasking(IMO) when you can hear the iron too.  
That being said I rarely use it anymore due to the “sizzly” digital audio  being extremely fatiguing.