Makro Kruzer Target ID Mineralization Not Happening

[kac]

Disc doesn't effect depth here either. Same on my Tejon if I cranked up my primary disc to above foil which I often do and leave 2nd for high conductor check. Depth is still the same on a nickel even if the trim is a hair below.

Noah is spot on with the results he as I found the same. The audio is harsh but does have a lot of nuances to learn. Wish they had the same smooth audio in all modes as they have in the gen mode. That would be killer!

Forgot to mention did you try beach mode to see how it handles your ground? Don't think it has ground breaking depth but may handle the harsh soil better. Good to see if it calms it down and narrows the issue to the ground or maybe there is something else going on. Dogdog mentioned to me he has a hard time in bad soil where he is and beach mode works there.

[Jeff McClendon]

This is an update after lots of testing of the Makro Kruzer single frequency 14kHz.

Honestly Kac, Nokta Makro only makes one single frequency Kruzer and it is the 14 kHz one that I have.........

So, I read through everyones posts about settings and target ID stability and accuracy. It all makes sense. It is what I would usually do in moderate to high mineralization= lower the sensitivity (generally 80 or less) until chatter from EMI and ground noise is acceptable while raising discrimination just enough to get rid of cold/hot rocks and ground mineralization (4 or 5 works good here). In Gen, 2 Tone, 4 Tone and Deep Modes that works just fine. In Beach 2 Tone Mode it works fairly well. In 3 Tone, which is supposed to be for higher modern trash areas it does not work at all in my soil conditions. 

So, somewhere in the back of my muddled brain I seemed to remember something about 3 Tone Mode on the Kruzers having super fast recovery speed up to a sensitivity setting of 89. At 90 sensitivity in 3 Tone the Kruzer goes into a boost mode with a bit slower recovery speed and longer audio and target ID response. I think I read this on Monte's site.........thanks Monte. With this adjustment of keeping sensitivity at least at 90 with discrimination at 4 or 5 and ISAT at 1 (which really seems to be some kind of IMask) I can get much better target IDs and can also get the correct tones for the tone breaks I have set for the most part. I am mostly concerned with getting some idea that I am detecting a low to mid conductor instead of a high conductor. Once I get used to doing a bit of mental target ID averaging by noticing target depth and more tone quality nuance recognition, I think I may be okay. I know this does not make much sense theoretically but it makes 3 Tone very usable. Before setting sensitivity at 90 in 3 Tone, the audio was absolutely awful with mid and high tones being blended together into what can only be called ugly static and target IDs all over the place between 60 and 99 on every target past 3" depth. Now, I get beautiful, clear tones. I don't mind a bit of blended audio but pure static is not okay. I seem to remember reading about the F75 needing enough information to decide on a target ID that was dependent on having enough gain......maybe I'm dreaming again OR maybe the Kruzers have something similar. I have a 5" nickel in my test bed that is the dividing line between my detector haves and have nots. In Kruzer 3 Tone with gain at 89 I get next to nothing on that nickel for audio with the occasional click or pop and numbers in the 80s and 90s. With gain at 90 the nickel hit with beautiful mid tones and numbers from 28 to 40 which is good enough for me with nickels hitting at 30 normally.

I have read through the manual for the Kruzer/Multi Kruzer three times. This information is not in the manual. Maybe I have an older version and there was an update.

I felt like I was doing a good thing by buying a 14 kHz Kruzer with everything included and in great shape for less than the price of a Simplex WHP and I was helping a struggling dealer out.  I was starting to wonder if I had really done something stupid. After today's work on this problem by all of you who replied, offered help and by my testing........I'm good!!!!

Jeff

[kac]

I really thought I saw a 19khz single frequency Kruzer at one time. You are right. That's kind of a bummer because I really like the number spread on mid/low conductors at 19khz. as it works very well for me picking through can slag.

I completely agree 3 tone is poor at 90 gain. I actually don't go past 85 which I consider the brink for 3 tone which is fine as you probably want to use that in trashy parks and doesn't make sense to try to search 14-16" down in a trash heap as everything on top is going to pollute your signals.

I find the audio tricky to learn and taking me some time but that is me as I like that old boring monotone from my Tejon.

When using 3 tone and that blazing fast recovery if you come across multiple targets and trying to see what is what, toss it in 4 tone mode and go super slow over them. In 4 tone start your isat at 1, gain 85+ ( i have mine at (95), Iron audio at 2 so it is soft and no discrim. You should be able to start to hear the different targets as you pass over. Handy also if you get a broken target signal from high disc settings.

[Jeff McClendon]

1 hour ago, kac said:

I really thought I saw a 19khz single frequency Kruzer at one time. You are right. That's kind of a bummer because I really like the number spread on mid/low conductors at 19khz. as it works very well for me picking through can slag.

I completely agree 3 tone is poor at 90 gain. I actually don't go past 85 which I consider the brink for 3 tone which is fine as you probably want to use that in trashy parks and doesn't make sense to try to search 14-16" down in a trash heap as everything on top is going to pollute your signals

Hi kac, 

I agree, I wish the Kruzer came in a single frequency 19 kHz like the Anfibio. I am basically learning the Kruzer so I can move on to the NokMak simultaneous multi frequency when it comes out and I did not see any point in buying a Simplex. 

Actually, in my mineralized dirt, 3 Tone at 90 or above is the only way I can get any depth at all. Otherwise, 3 Tone at 89 or below is only good for recent drops that are just in the thatch or on the service. 3 Tone at 90 gives me fairly solid target IDs in the correct tone bins and still is pretty fast. Yes, I do get lots of small stuff going off but since I use an Equinox and ORX I am used to some noise. I could not stand the audio in 3 Tone with sensitivity at 89 or less. Sounded like AM radio static and  in this dirt it wouldn't even give a numerical ID on 4" targets.

I really like how I can quickly switch from 3 tone to 2 tone or 4 Tone to check a target more closely with a quick push of a button. Same thing on the Makro Racer 2. 

Jeff

[Sven1]

We have  beaches that contain black magnetic sand mixed in with the silica sand.

It's a headache for most detectors, loss of depth, normally good target ID's drop into the lower range. Iron will wrap around and ID in the silver range. Good chance your passing all the good targets and digging more trash. Better to dig all ID numbers that the sand causes the detector to drop 30 ID numbers that are normally 80-90"s. That's the reason why many claim all they find is junk on the beach.

The beach causes a loss in depth, very hard to find a coin on edge.

The only trick I find that works well, is a smaller coil and hunting in a true threshold based all metal mode. Listen for a sharp narrow coin size tone and dig.

The best detector here is a Pi or a Minelab.

 

 

[kac]

I'm curious how high do you have to nudge up the discrim at full gain to quiet the machine down and how high at 90?

Around here the most I have needed to go is 7, usually 3-4 in most areas but our soil is for wimps. 3 tone is the only mode I run disc on. Others I just use the iron audio but in your case that might not be possible.

[dogodog]

Jeff,

I suggest picking one mode to start with, the is exception gen mode. I have some pretty goofy soil here in PA and It's full of iron inside the clay. I like 3 tone and don't loose any depth with the disc up to 20. Learn on one mode and then transfer the knowledge to the others after time. One trick that will help you focus in on good targets is flip flopping your tones run your fe tone at 15, your gold/non fe tone at 70 and your non fe tone at 35. This will give you a distinct break in the sounds that will give you another level of discrimination (by ear). Test it in a garden with silver and copper and you will hear a low tone on those targets (it will not sound like iron). Gold and aluminum will have the same high tone. When I hunt in bad soil that is combined with EMI, I lower the volume and work through the chaos. You will find that the MK will give you a very strong sound on a good target even though the machine is going crazy. At this point do not watch the ID's let your ears tell you what it is. Thats where the tone flip comes in. Also when it rains like crazy here I run beach mode to take care of the wet mineralized ground and it works quite well. Running 85 gain will take some of your problems away and once you get a faint target, bump up to 95 and play with the target to get a better idea on what it is.

Here's a good starting set up 

3 tone,  Gain - 85   Disc - 08   Notch - 01   Fe. vol. - N2

Tone break  04 - 70

Tone - 15 - 70 - 35

isat - 02

When you change settings do it one at a time to see what it does to your machine in your soil and record all the info. Once you master one mode you will have mastered them all, other modes just require small setting changes. And there is nothing wrong with 14khz

 

[kac]

I still need to try the tone flipping here. I do use 19khz more mainly because my pinpointer hates 14 lol.

14 is better on silver and better for relic. I find the 19 has a nice spread on mid range targets giving you more number spread between nickels and square tabs etc but you also nail bits of foil too hard. Overall there isn't that much of a drastic difference between the 2.

[Jeff McClendon]

16 hours ago, kac said:

I'm curious how high do you have to nudge up the discrim at full gain to quiet the machine down and how high at 90?

Around here the most I have needed to go is 7, usually 3-4 in most areas but our soil is for wimps. 3 tone is the only mode I run disc on. Others I just use the iron audio but in your case that might not be possible.

Running any detector (except maybe an F19/G2+ in disc mode) at full gain where I detect is next to impossible due to the mineralization. I can run most detectors including the Kruzer between 70% and 90% of max. It is just kind of weird that the 3 Tone mode on the Kruzer simply will not work here unless it is at 90 gain. It will not hit a 4" target with any kind of decent audio or numerical target ID. Below 90 it is a jumpy, crackly, static filled mess. It makes 4 Tone sound lovely by comparison. At 90 the tones are crystal clear and the numbers are fairly stable. At 90 however, it will also make an 1/8th inch piece of 3" deep aluminum sound fantastic. That is a big problem in my opinion since I bought this detector especially for coin and jewelry. I can run the discrimination at 5 or 6 in any mode on the Kruzer and it is quiet enough to detect even with the gain at 90 in 3 tone. I had similar problems with the T2, F75 and Omega but in the opposite direction. I couldn't run them over 60% without them going absolutely nuts so they got very little depth and awful target IDs.

Steve is right as usual. There are many places in the Western USA where single frequency detectors are just unreliable. I was in the Colorado mountains today at a well known gold producing site trying to run my GM24K. Luckily I took both coils since the 6.5 inch concentric was overloading with gain at 3 and VSAT at max. The 10x5 DD worked okay at gain of 5 with VSAT at max. Of course there is pea sized to marble sized magnetite all over the ground. I should have had my Nox 800 and TDI SL. I will take the right detectors next time.

The picture below is some of the small stuff. I just hover my pick magnet an inch above the ground and this is the result.

Jeff

 

[Jeff McClendon]

Hi dogodog,

I appreciate your suggestions and have already tried them. However, if you read my posts, 3 Tones is just not happening in my dirt without using the slower recovery speed and boosted audio at 90 gain whether I flip the tone bins or not. I have to hunt by ear and by numerical target IDs. I can't use a shovel most places I hunt in the Denver area due to city park digging restrictions. I am not going after a target unless I am fairly certain I know what it is and how deep it is since I can only use a screwdriver. If I can't get good numbers, good, clear audio and relatively good depth readings I'm in for a frustrating detecting day. Setting the gain at 90 really helps. For the moment I just have to ignore most of the numerous clicks and pops and like you said, pay close attention to those targets that sound really good.

Jeff