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Garrett Engineer Brent Weaver Discusses Ace Apex Technology


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On 5/17/2020 at 1:39 PM, Monte said:

It is just an 'Ace' series and all we can do, until we get one I-hand to evaluate, is hope they have refined and improved some of the things the Ace didn't do well, while adding something useful to it. 

Honestly Monte, there is nothing “Ace” about this detector but the name. It’s a completely new detector.

garrett-ace-apex-color-flyer.jpg

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1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Honestly Monte, there is nothing “Ace” about this detector but the name. It’s a completely new detector.

Other than having "ACE" on the faceplate, I agree, the entire shaft system, armrest and hand grip look to be the same quality as the AT series and that has to be one of the nicest control housings I have ever seen. Just make it have faster recovery speed than any detector you have ever made, please Garrett.

Jeff

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Apex stock coil is smaller than usual 8 1/2x11 stock coil. Size they chose is similar to the Kruzer series which I find really good balance between depth and easy to negotiate around obstructions. By the looks of it they really cherry picked the features on this one.

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2 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Other than having "ACE" on the faceplate, I agree, the entire shaft system, armrest and hand grip look to be the same quality as the AT series and that has to be one of the nicest control housings I have ever seen. Just make it have faster recovery speed than any detector you have ever made, please Garrett.

Jeff

The grip and rod looks lifted directly from the AT Max. But the real thing is the electronics - all new. There is no "Ace" inside the housing. Assuming this will not outperform the AT series when run equal coil to coil is a pretty poor bet in my opinion. That may seem crazy but not if Garrett is revamping and retiring the entire old line over the next year, as very well may be the case. That's what I'd be doing if I were running the show, and if it proves to be true then my respect for Vaughan will increase immeasurably. Up to now I just assumed he would do what most kids do when they inherit Dad's business - run it into the ground, like Tesoro.

garrett-ace-apex-vs-at-max.jpg

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5 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

Yes, I think recovery speed could be an achilles heal for Apex.

 Ok, Apex 'heal' thyself haha

 

In the meantime I think the phrase is 'achilles heel'

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6 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

Yes, I think recovery speed could be an achilles heal for Apex.

 

3 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Just make it have faster recovery speed than any detector you have ever made, please Garrett.

When I was at White's I did a comprehensive test of target recovery speeds for maybe 40 different detectors from all the manufacturers. The best of all I tested was the AT-Gold, with the Tejon (I think it was) slightly behind. Most all the other detectors were clustered in the "mundane range". Mind you, this was maybe 10 yrs ago before a lot of newer models came along, and the XP Deus I had was on the original firmware. But I expect the AT-Gold I tested would still rank amongst the best, so I would have to say that Garrett knows how to do recovery speed.

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58 minutes ago, Geotech said:

 

When I was at White's I did a comprehensive test of target recovery speeds for maybe 40 different detectors from all the manufacturers. The best of all I tested was the AT-Gold, with the Tejon (I think it was) slightly behind. Most all the other detectors were clustered in the "mundane range". Mind you, this was maybe 10 yrs ago before a lot of newer models came along, and the XP Deus I had was on the original firmware. But I expect the AT-Gold I tested would still rank amongst the best, so I would have to say that Garrett knows how to do recovery speed.

I am going to guess that you tested both the discrimination mode and the "all metal mode" on the AT Gold. I had no problem with the AT Gold's AM mode's recovery speed and target separation. My problem recovery speed/audio lag wise was with the AT Gold, AT Pro and the ACE in discrimination mode. Since the APEX only has discrimination modes, I am worried.

Jeff

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On 5/17/2020 at 9:39 PM, Jeff McClendon said:

I am going to guess that you tested both the discrimination mode and the "all metal mode" on the AT Gold. I had no problem with the AT Gold's AM mode's recovery speed and target separation. My problem recovery speed/audio lag wise was with the AT Gold, AT Pro and the ACE in discrimination mode. Since the APEX only has discrimination modes, I am worried.

Jeff

I always test recovery speed in disc mode. The AT Gold was excellent, the AT Pro not so much.

garrett-ace-apex-metal-detector-studio.jpg

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Technically there is no such thing as recovery speed in a true threshold based all metal mode. All targets and ground respond continuously. However, the threshold autotune is always trying to smooth the threshold, so you do have varying rates of threshold recovery. White's of course pioneered variable self adjusting threshold (SAT) long ago, and now many other manufacturers have followed suit on modern detectors that feature a true threshold based all metal mode.

Threshold Autotune, SAT & V/SAT

Recovery speed or reactivity is a function of a disc mode, with most disc modes having a "gated" audio response. This is where each target response is distinct in length, and must complete itself before a new audio response can commence. Like opening and closing a gate. If the response is too long it can mask new targets that are so close as to be within the time-frame allocated to the first target response.

Recovery Speed, Recovery Delay, And Reactivity

The key thing to remember when discussing recovery speed or reactivity is that what you are talking about is the ability of a detector to separate targets that are under the coil at nearly the same time. However, a coil is seeing everything that is under the coil at the same time, and can combine / average the results for everything under the coil, delivering an inaccurate target id result, or, a stronger target under one portion of the coil will override (mask) another target that is also under the coil. Therefore it really is coil size that matters here more than anything, and a detector with a slower recovery speed and a small coil can easily do better than a very fast detector with a larger coil. In an ideal situation you have only one target under the coil at any time, and in the event of multiple targets under a coil some sort of inaccurate target id or masking is almost inevitable. It is the nature of how the detectors function, and no magic recovery speed setting can change that. The Deus is renowned for its recovery speed, and rightfully so. However, due to a lack of small coil options many other detectors can easily equal or exceed the Deus for target separation by simply employing much smaller coils than are available for it.

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