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Garrett Engineer Brent Weaver Discusses Ace Apex Technology


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On 5/15/2020 at 2:26 PM, maxxkatt said:

I am happy for Garrett. Lot of innovations at the entry level, eg Simplex, Vanquish and the Apex.

but good to see Garrett wake up and respond to the Vanquish and Simplex.

Yes, it is good to see Garrett step it up with something newer and creative, but ....

in their entry promo video they only inferred to the Vanquish 540 and Simplex + as the two models they were comparing their APEX with.  That's unfair in several ways.  One is that they only pointed out those two models 9by reference and not name) and commented on what the APEX had to offer.  It's not fair that a comparison didn't offer any support of what the other models offered compared with the APEX.  But let's be fair and start with what folks would pay, the $$$$ factor, for what the manufacturer offers, and we'll base that on their MSRP.

That definitely changes things up a bit!  The Nokta / Makro Simplex + is $299 and the APEX is $499.95, so that's not fair since the Simplex + only costs 60% of what the APEX costs.  And in overall features and adjustability, the Simplex + offers a lot more.  I think we need to compare Garrett's new 'advanced' or 'r-vamped' Ace series model with other offerings at comparable MSRP's.  What are they?  Let's take a look by brand:

Fisher:  The closest is the F4 at $449.00

Minelab: The Vanquish 540 at $499

Nokta / Makro: The Racer 2 at $499

White's: The Treasure Pro at $499.95

Of these, the V-540 is a reasonably fair comparison, and I have the V-540 and know what it can do.  I had, briefly, an Ace 400 and dumped=t it quickly because of what it can't do.  I am really hoping Garrett changed the Ace-behavior with the APEX but watching th videos and listening to the Iron Audio and drawn-out 'ring-time' am will need this new model in my hands to check it out. 

The Fisher offering doesn't provide any serious competition at this price-point, and the White's Treasure pro is simply laughable.  If you've never handled one .... don't.    But the Nokta / Makro racer 2?  I can assure you that for that price point the falls way short of features and performance unless there's some magic under the hood, but ..... it's still an Ace series model.

Honestly, I really like the looks and some of the new features but they are going to have to have made some significant changes in performance afield from what the Ace series has offered.  And they definitely need to get some optional search coils out soon, especially a couple of smaller-size offerings.  This 'blended-concept' Viper 6X11 DD just isn't going to provide the abilities of a good smaller-size coil.  I hope the new ACE APEX  truly is a model to rival the competition in performance.

Monte

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23 hours ago, kac said:

That smaller coil on the Apex looks like it will do really well in trashy areas.

What "smaller coil?" 

The APEX  standard coil is 6X11 DD and that is not what I consider to be a 'smaller-size' coil.  It's more of a 'medium-size' coil when compared with a 7X11 DD or a 5½X110 or 5X9½ DD or the slightly shorter tip-to-tail 5X8 DD.  I don't mind an elliptically-shaped search coil, but once one of the dimensions gets  to be over 7" it falls into the medium-size or on to a larger-size, such as the 9X12 or 8X11.

A "smaller-size" coil would be in the round 4½", 5" or 6" category, or an elliptical coil like the small 4.7X5.2 'OOR' DD, or something up to about 4X6 DD.   "Separation" isn't just hunting a site with all targets aligned East-to-West and approach them from the North or South.  They are many, and often odd-shaped, and can be scattered all about a site in all manner of orientations and close proximities.  That '11' fore-and-aft coil length is going to defeat the efforts due to good-target masking.

The new 'Viper' standard coil might be fine for a wide-open park, a plowed field, maybe a sports field and certainly most beach work.  But don't try and convince an avid Relic Hunter who deals with dense debris that the skinnier width is going to make a big difference.  Garrett's been working n this new creation so I'm trusting they will also come out ... soon ... with some workable smaller-size search coils.

Monte

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34 minutes ago, Monte said:

And in overall features and adjustability, the Simplex + offers a lot more. 

If you mean a lot more than Apex, then I fundamentally disagree with this statement.  If you mean a lot more than it's 60% less price tag, I guess I would have to agree with that.   I think the 60% premium you pay for Apex over Simplex comes down to the fact that you are stuck at 12 khz for the Simplex but have 4 frequency choices for the Apex.  That is huge (even if you consider the Simplex waterproof housing) and I am not even including Multi F in this equation which makes Apex (on paper at least) a more capable salt beach/wading machine than Simplex.  I was hoping that Nokta would do multiple selectable frequencies in Simplex but that would defeat what Simplex is supposed to be and would undercut the Nokta Multi Kruzer and Anfibio offerings.  As it turns out, Garrett has eclipsed the Vanquish (on paper at least) with multiple selectable single frequencies, ground balance, true weatherproof housing and has introduced the least expensive selectable frequency machine in the marketplace, period.  The Racer - again a single frequency machine.  Yes, real world performance will reveal if this is a paper tiger or a real competitive machine and I completely agree with you that the "stock" coil offered is a disappointment for all around performance.  My main concern is depth at a 5" DD width.   That is like walking around with a hockey puck but with good ground coverage.  Really needed an 8" width minimum for a general purpose stock coil.  Something like they offered on the Vanquish 540 which is a really nice gp form factor.

P.S.  Maybe this development will spur ML to issue a software update to Vanquish to fix the GB issue and offer at least one single frequency mode to the Vanquish.  

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32 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

If you mean a lot more than Apex, then I fundamentally disagree with this statement.  If you mean a lot more than it's 60% less price tag, I guess I would have to agree with that.   I think the 60% premium you pay for Apex over Simplex comes down to the fact that you are stuck at 12 khz for the Simplex but have 4 frequency choices for the Apex.  That is huge (even if you consider the Simplex waterproof housing) and I am not even including Multi F in this equation which makes Apex (on paper at least) a more capable salt beach/wading machine than Simplex.  

The Simplex + at $299 and APEX at $499.95 means the Simplex + is about 60% of the APEX  price tag.  Looking at it the other way, the APEX is $200 more than a $300 Simplex + so that's an increase of 66.66%  or  more than the price of a Simplex +, and that's significant to  lot of detector shoppers.

As you stated, and I agree, 'on paper' the new  APEX appears o offer some potential for improved performance based on the Selectable Single Frequencies, and possibly using the Multi-Frequency.  But we don't know for sure what or how many frequencies are actually being used, nor do we know the in-the-field performance of the  APEX until we use it, and then compare it side-by-side with a comparable SMF device.

But while we are referring to "on paper" descriptions by reading the specifications and statements, can you see where the  APEX  provides the following:

Backlight: Is it 'On' or 'Off' like the Vanquish 540?  Or does it provide  'Off' plus 4 levels of constant brightness or 4 levels of Automatic brightness that come on with target detection ... like the Simplex +?

Iron Audio Volume: Which the V-540 doesn't offer, then other than 'Off' I would hope it has at least 3 level of intensity like the Simplex +.

Threshold Level Adjust for the All Metal mode: I have Threshold adjustment on the Simplex +, but ... Oh, wait, the  APEX  doesn't have an All Metal mode to adjust a Threshold level.

Audio Tone Options:  The  APEX offers 5-Tones, if all Disc. segments are accepted, just like the Vanquish 540.  The Vanquish doesn't have any audio options.  Does the  APEX ?  I haven't read about them, but when I get on in my hands I'll verify that.  The Simplex + only offers three Discriminate audio options: Park 1 and Park 2 (kind of like Coins US and Coins International) are each a 3-Tone mode. Field is a 2-Tone mode w/VCO audio enhancement.  Beach mode is 2-Tone w/o VCO and a different audio high-tone than Field mode.

Recovery Speed aka Reactivity or Separation referred to by different manufacturers: I don't see it stated, but it might be in software based on the mode.  We won't know until we get a  APEX in-hand.  The V-540 is a quicker-response in Coin mode and Jewelry mode, and a slower-response, kind of like a 'Deep' program, in the Relic mode.  The Simplex + has a little slower, or 'Deep mode' behavior in Field and Beach modes.  The Park 1 is a comfortable Recovery rate and Park 2 is a faster recovery rate.  The APEX , at least from what we have heard and read.

I will be getting an  APEX  in order to learn just what good things the folks at Garrett might have dne with the Ace series, and how well it works and if there are any worthwhile performance benefits in how it behaves afield and with the different Frequency choices.

 

36 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

I was hoping that Nokta would do multiple selectable frequencies in Simplex but that would defeat what Simplex is supposed to be and would undercut the Nokta Multi Kruzer and Anfibio offerings.

I agree with the Nokta / Makro approach with most of their models, an the Simplex + is just what it was meant to be.  A better-than-most detector, perhaps some would say at least a mid-line or mid-price level performance and featured model, and an absolute unbelievable "entry-level" price.  Instead of folks trying to compare a Simplex + with an  APEX  or Vanquish 540, or even an Equinox or AT Pro ... they ought to compare the Simplex + design, features and performance with any other detectors with an MSRP of $299.  Any challengers?

 

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

As it turns out, Garrett has eclipsed the Vanquish (on paper at least) with multiple selectable single frequencies, ground balance, true weatherproof housing and has introduced the least expensive selectable frequency machine in the marketplace, period.  The Racer - again a single frequency machine.  Yes, real world performance will reveal if this is a paper tiger or a real competitive machine ...   

I am not going to argue the fact that "on paper" the new Garrett ACE APEX really looks like a lot of features at a decent price and at a reasonably priced entry level.  I am really hoping this model might give us at lest some enhanced performance of the Ace siblings.  If not, it at least shows us th direction the folks at Garrett are going and we can hope a new upper-end AT version will bring the more avid detectorist that better-level of performance.

 

37 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

... and I completely agree with you that the "stock" coil offered is a disappointment for all around performance.  My main concern is depth at a 5" DD width.   That is like walking around with a hockey puck but with good ground coverage.  Really needed an 8" width minimum for a general purpose stock coil.  Something like they offered on the Vanquish 540 which is a really nice gp form factor.

P.S.  Maybe this development will spur ML to issue a software update to Vanquish to fix the GB issue and offer at least one single frequency mode to the Vanquish.  

Yes, to me the blended Viper 6X11 isn't going to make a good 'general Purpose' search coil.  The Simplex + round-shaped 11" DD and the V-540's 9X12 DD provide better coverage and improved depth-of-detector ('On Paper' based on the detector's settings and ability) for those who hunt wide-open spaces such as a beach, a plowed field, or wide-open grassy parks with minimal masking trash.

And for those of us who spend ±90% of their detecting time in densely iron contaminated Relic Hunting sites, when we can also be hampered by building rubble, rocks, sagebrush, heavy weed or tree growth and other vegetation, we need smaller size search coils .... in BOTH directions and not just a side-to-side width.  The Viper coil, regardless of the hocus-pocus stated in the videos, just isn't going to cut it.  The Simplex + w/11" DD isn't either and smaller coils are needed and soon to be out.  I hope Garrett gets busy on accessory coils.  At least the V-540 Pro Pack came with the excellent mid-size 5X8 DD that is working well.

Just my thoughts.  I liked the presentation.  I like the looks and some of what I read and head and saw.  But some has me hesitant until I actually use and compare the  APEX.

Monte

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I like just about everything I have seen and understand about the Apex so far except for there being virtually nothing about audio/recovery speed improvements. I know that the specifications for the Apex say "Fast Recovery Speed". The same thing has been said for many other detectors (incorrectly in my opinion) and the word  "Fast" is definitely relative. I like the five audio tones that Garrett has chosen for the Apex. I have never liked the long, drawn out audio of the discrimination modes on the Garrett Ace and AT models that I have used. How that affected the recovery speed on those older models has not been impressive at all. So, hopefully something much more workable and improved has been done for the Apex and it will have significantly shorter audio responses and faster recovery speed. Too bad there does not appear to be a user recovery speed adjustment or any mention of different recovery/audio response times using different modes.

 

Jeff

 

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6 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

I like just about everything I have seen and understand about the Apex so far except for there being virtually nothing about audio/recovery speed improvements. I like the five audio tones that Garrett has chosen for the Apex. I have never liked the long, drawn out audio of the discrimination modes on the Garrett Ace and AT models that I have used. How that affected the recovery speed on those older models has not been impressive at all. So, hopefully something much more workable and improved has done for the Apex and it will have significantly shorter audio response and faster recovery speed. Too bad there does not appear to be a user recovery speed adjustment or any mention of different recovery/audio response times using different modes.

 

Jeff

 

You are right, Jeff.  I suspect there is nothing there regarding recovery speed adjustments or tone adjustments.  The "modes" are just prepackaged discrimination patterns and perhaps (but not likely) have different 5-tone breakpoints.  I suspect recovery speed is fixed across the board unless there is some delta between the two MF modes and/or between MF and the single frequency modes.

I guess we have to keep reminding ourselves this an Ace not an AT series detector, so hopefully these enhancements will be addressed in a future higher end Garret offering.

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1 hour ago, Monte said:

The Simplex + at $299 and APEX at $499.95 means the Simplex + is about 60% of the APEX  price tag.  Looking at it the other way, the APEX is $200 more than a $300 Simplex + so that's an increase of 66.66%  or  more than the price of a Simplex +, and that's significant to  lot of detector shoppers.

Right, so if you can't afford Apex, stick with arguably the best single frequency detector in the world for less tha $400, Simplex.  However, for those who know the advantage of what selectable single frequency brings to the table, you can't get it for less than Apex anywhere, period.  Simultaneous MF puts the cherry on top of that detector sundae and frankly even if it only makes Apex a stable salt beach detector, that is still a win.

1 hour ago, Monte said:

As you stated, and I agree, 'on paper' the new  APEX appears o offer some potential for improved performance based on the Selectable Single Frequencies, and possibly using the Multi-Frequency.  But we don't know for sure what or how many frequencies are actually being used, nor do we know the in-the-field performance of the  APEX until we use it, and then compare it side-by-side with a comparable SMF device

Selectable multiple single frequency is not an "on paper" improvement, it is a defacto game changer on any properly designed detector.  Stick that on the old Ace and it will make a huge performance difference.  No one has offered it in this price range period and even the Equinox 600 doesn't offer 20 khz.  ML missed the boat by not including at least one SF mode option on Vanquish.  I frankly would have been happy if Garrett simply stopped there.  20 khz is a killer relic frequency.  But they went all in on MF too.

We'll see how Garrett's MF/Salt MF turns out.  But it has nothing to do with "how many frequencies are actually being used" (it appears that Equinox only uses two frequencies in many of its MF modes, possibly 3 in beach mode) but how they sample and post-process the target signal.  Jury is still out for Garrett in this regard. 

Regardless, I think people are sleeping on Garrett if they focus on MF and ignore what Garrett has done to bring multiple selectable single frequency in at this price point.

1 hour ago, Monte said:

But while we are referring to "on paper" descriptions by reading the specifications and statements, can you see where the  APEX  provides the following:

Backlight: Is it 'On' or 'Off' like the Vanquish 540?  Or does it provide  'Off' plus 4 levels of constant brightness or 4 levels of Automatic brightness that come on with target detection ... like the Simplex +?

This is really just a nunner in the weeds feature to me.  I guess as long as it doesn't sear my eyeballs off like the original Equinox 600 implementation, I'm fine with on/off or always on, frankly.

1 hour ago, Monte said:

Iron Audio Volume: Which the V-540 doesn't offer, then other than 'Off' I would hope it has at least 3 level of intensity like the Simplex +.

It actually has 8 levels of Iron Volume.  Download the Apex brochure where this info is buried from the Apex page or see the screenshot below.  BTW Garrett appears to be obsessed with 8's.  8 iron disc pixel segments, 8 levels of iron volume, 8 channels for each single and MF mode (that's 48 total channels which should help on EMI), 8 levels of sensitivity... 

1 hour ago, Monte said:

Threshold Level Adjust for the All Metal mode: I have Threshold adjustment on the Simplex +, but ... Oh, wait, the  APEX  doesn't have an All Metal mode to adjust a Threshold level.

To me this is the biggest disappointment of Simplex. For whatever reason, AM performs terribly in my test garden.  The other modes (except for the original Park (now Park 2)) perform just fine.  None of my test garden targets are exceptionally deep, they are mainly there for ear training and comparison, not for extreme on the edge performance testing at depth.  They consist of various typical coin denominations and smaller brass and lead relic targets with some mixed target simulated "spills", vertcally oriented coins and ferrous/non-ferrous junk mixed in.  Relic mode is by far the best overall, followed by beach and Park 1.  AM just has no intensity whatsoever compared to the disc modes and GB and threshold adjustment do not help.  It is either severely flawed or poorly implemented or is not working on my detector.  Weird.

1 hour ago, Monte said:

Audio Tone Options:  The  APEX offers 5-Tones, if all Disc. segments are accepted, just like the Vanquish 540.  The Vanquish doesn't have any audio options.  Does the  APEX ?  I haven't read about them, but when I get on in my hands I'll verify that.  The Simplex + only offers three Discriminate audio options: Park 1 and Park 2 (kind of like Coins US and Coins International) are each a 3-Tone mode. Field is a 2-Tone mode w/VCO audio enhancement.  Beach mode is 2-Tone w/o VCO and a different audio high-tone than Field mode.

The audio tone options including mixed VCO on Simplex are excellent.  I wish the intensity of Vanquish banging on a high conductor were there too, but I will take target strength modulation (which is typically poorly implemented on Equinox and Vanquish) with VCO if forced to choose (more like Deus).

1 hour ago, Monte said:

Recovery Speed aka Reactivity or Separation referred to by different manufacturers: I don't see it stated, but it might be in software based on the mode.  We won't know until we get a  APEX in-hand.  The V-540 is a quicker-response in Coin mode and Jewelry mode, and a slower-response, kind of like a 'Deep' program, in the Relic mode.  The Simplex + has a little slower, or 'Deep mode' behavior in Field and Beach modes.  The Park 1 is a comfortable Recovery rate and Park 2 is a faster recovery rate.  The APEX , at least from what we have heard and read.

Yes, the Vanquish and Simplex have limited variable recovery speed which is a plus.  I suspect Apex recovery speed to be acceptable but uniform across the board.  Possibly some delta between the two MF modes and/or between MF and the single frequency options (due to less processing load), but this is a big unknown I put in my Apex Pros/Cons rackout here.

1 hour ago, Monte said:

I will be getting an  APEX  in order to learn just what good things the folks at Garrett might have dne with the Ace series, and how well it works and if there are any worthwhile performance benefits in how it behaves afield and with the different Frequency choices.

Same here.

SmartSelect_20200517-133844_Drive.jpg

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....In my opinion, Garrett would not add 6 search programs to Apex with the same * Recovery Speed ..... ,, I believe more that the programs are more optimized for a specific type of search ..

I take a 6x 11 "coil more than a standard search coil...,
.. with a greatly increased degree of separation .... but of course for a very demanding separation we will need a shorter coil of a slightly smaller size ...

8-9 "coil I consider ideal as a standard coil for a powerful multifrequency detector ... in terms of depth, sensitivity and separation....

The fact that Garrett gave the 6x11 "coil as a standard raises a few questions ... because to reach a depth as the competition  other detectors whit  larger standart   coils, the Apex detector itself must be powerful enough ...

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2 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

SmartSelect_20200517-133844_Drive.jpg

Maybe the APEX offers more Iron Audio adjustment in its price range, but does it?  The Fisher F44, a lower-priced model, goes from 'OFF' at a Volume setting of '10' to then increase 10 steps from 11, 12, 13, 14, - - - - to 20.

I think that overall we generally agree on many points of interest about the Garrett APEX. and that it is not a new king-of-the-hill or up-line model to challenge or replace the AT series.  I'm sure they are working on that right now.  It is just an 'Ace' series and all we can do, until we get one I-hand to evaluate, is hope they have refined and improved some of the things the Ace didn't do well, while adding something useful to it.  Don't get me wrong, I was surprised and impressed that they went the route of a Selectable Frequency option as well as Multi-Frequency.  Until you and I or anyone else uses it, who rally knows how well it will perform?  I know it will go up against my Vanquish 540 Pro Pack with it's 5-Tones and Multi-IQ multi-frequency.

With regard to your Simplex + performance in the All Metal and other modes, I have so far been 'OK' with the All Metal mode performance, but not to the level of boasting or bragging about it.  I've only had limited opportunity to hunt our one-and-old city park out in the open center grassy area.  It works, but ...

My favorite modes are Park 1 and Beach with Field mode coming in a close #3.  I am holding out hope that maybe, just maybe Garrett engineers designed in some recovery speed difference in some of the modes like they have on the Simplex +.  Again, we won't know until we handle it.  Oh, and your backlight comments I mainly agree with.  I like to turn it on or turn it off.   And if 'on it needs to be bright enough to be functional and not blinding.  The Vanquish 540 has an On or Off backlight, but it's a red backlight and it isn't very bright.  I only used it in early evening and I wished it was white, and also wished it was brighter.  as for the Simplex +, I pointed out the differences not for you as much as for readers unfamiliar with what it offers.  I have mine on A2 or A3 right now, to come On when I locate a target and be bright enough and not distracting.

Of course, one of he best ways for you and I to put our backgrounds, knowledge and talents to work to provide the best into here on Steve's Forums, is for the good folks at Garrett to send an APEX to each of us.:smile:

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10 minutes ago, Monte said:

Maybe the APEX offers more Iron Audio adjustment in its price range, but does it?  The Fisher F44, a lower-priced model, goes from 'OFF' at a Volume setting of '10' to then increase 10 steps from 11, 12, 13, 14, - - - - to 20.

I think that overall we generally agree on many points of interest about the Garrett APEX. and that it is not a new king-of-the-hill or up-line model to challenge or replace the AT series.  I'm sure they are working on that right now.  It is just an 'Ace' series and all we can do, until we get one I-hand to evaluate, is hope they have refined and improved some of the things the Ace didn't do well, while adding something useful to it.  Don't get me wrong, I was surprised and impressed that they went the route of a Selectable Frequency option as well as Multi-Frequency.  Until you and I or anyone else uses it, who rally knows how well it will perform?  I know it will go up against my Vanquish 540 Pro Pack with it's 5-Tones and Multi-IQ multi-frequency.

With regard to your Simplex + performance in the All Metal and other modes, I have so far been 'OK' with the All Metal mode performance, but not to the level of boasting or bragging about it.  I've only had limited opportunity to hunt our one-and-old city park out in the open center grassy area.  It works, but ...

My favorite modes are Park 1 and Beach with Field mode coming in a close #3.  I am holding out hope that maybe, just maybe Garrett engineers designed in some recovery speed difference in some of the modes like they have on the Simplex +.  Again, we won't know until we handle it.  Oh, and your backlight comments I mainly agree with.  I like to turn it on or turn it off.   And if 'on it needs to be bright enough to be functional and not blinding.  The Vanquish 540 has an On or Off backlight, but it's a red backlight and it isn't very bright.  I only used it in early evening and I wished it was white, and also wished it was brighter.  as for the Simplex +, I pointed out the differences not for you as much as for readers unfamiliar with what it offers.  I have mine on A2 or A3 right now, to come On when I locate a target and be bright enough and not distracting.

Of course, one of he best ways for you and I to put our backgrounds, knowledge and talents to work to provide the best into here on Steve's Forums, is for the good folks at Garrett to send an APEX to each of us.:smile:

What is that Monte, your "But this one goes to 11" argument on iron volume. :laugh:

Yes, I think recovery speed could be an achilles heal for Apex.  I see no clues they are even considering a limited mode-based recovery speed variation like in Simplex and Vanquish.

I really like the Simplex relic mode with Park 1 and Beach not far behind.  Funny, it seemed beach was more responsive in my test garden before the 1.77 update.  Could be imagining this, but really thought that to be the case.  I will have to look at the before and after video tape.

I do like the novelty of the auto backlight mode on Simplex.  I could see that being useful for water work.

Hey, I'm all in on a complimentary Apex review model.  Can't argue with that.  :smile:

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