Garrett Ace Apex Versus Minelab Vanquish 540

[Chase Goldman]

1 hour ago, palzynski said:

This is the reason why I like the MultiIQ because the machine does automatically the job for you scanning all the freqs … 

As good as multifrequency is, it is never going to be as effective as hitting the site with different individual frequencies or different MF profiles because MF is usually biased to a most effective frequency component. 

That is the performance advantage of Equinox vs. Vanquish. Vanquish likely only has one MF profle. Vanquish modes are only diffrentiated by preset recovery speed and discrimination settings.  On Equinox, you likely have at least 6 or 7 unique MF profiles (unclear if each of the beach 1/2 and gold 1/2 MF mode profiles are unique) with all the myriad tone, recovery speed, and iron bias adjustable settings on top of those MF profiles giving significant conditional detecting versatility.

That's why on Vanquish it really would've been nice if ML provided one or more individual frequency modes to provide additional versatility, similar to what Garrett is doing at only a slightly higher price point than Vanquish.  Demonstrating that ML could probably have done it too (and provided adjustable GB) without having to jack up the price. 

ML probably knew that their target Vanquish demographic would probably not miss those features, but more experienced detectorists,  looking for a bargain in Vanquish vs Equinox as perhaps a backup detector, did notice.  And now looking at Apex's price point, it looks like needless cutting of corners on features on ML's part to those folks, steering them towards Apex or an Equonox 600 as a preferred backup detector for those that encounter highly variable ground environments. 

As a result Garrett has introduced a detector with slightly greater appeal across a boader base of detectorists of varying skills and experience vs. ML with Vanquish.  If I am really budget limited, I go with Simplex.  If I want bang for my buck, I go with Apex.

All of this is dependent, of course, on how Apex actually performs in the field.

[palzynski]

39 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

As good as multifrequency is, it is never going to be as effective as hitting the site with different individual frequencies or different MF profiles because MF is usually biased to a most effective frequency component.  That is the advantage of Equinox vs. Vanquish. Vanquish likely only has one MF profle. Vanquish modes are only diffrentiated by preset recovery speed and discrimination settings.  On Equinox, you likely have at least 6 or 7 unique MF profiles (unclear if each of the beach 1/2 and gold 1/2 MF mode profiles are unique).  That's why on Vanquish it really would've been good if ML provided one or more individual frequency modes similar to what Garrett is doing at only a slightly higher price point than Vanquish.  Demonstrating that ML could probably have done it too (and provided adjustable GB) without having to jack up the price.  ML knew that their target Vanquish  demographic would probably not miss those features, but to more experienced detectorists lioking for a bargain in Vanquish did notice.   And now looking at Apex's price point, it looks like needless cutting of corners on features.on ML's part.

Actually I have been working a long time in a software development company  so I know  it takes time (then money ) for implementing software functionalities , even simple ones …  So I think that ML has decided to limit the functionalities of the Vanquish to be able to offer it at a competitive price, starting from 340e. But only ML could answer to this , I do not know if they look at this forum … 🙂

Concerning the Apex I do not know yet... If I have the opportunity to test it , I will follow exactly the same procedure as for the others , bed tests , field tests on different locations. Usually after 15/20 hours of testing I have a good idea of what can do a detector , obviously only for my kind of hunting  ( coin/relic hunting in European areas, mild soils , inland). 

[Chase Goldman]

41 minutes ago, palzynski said:

Actually I have been working a long time in a software development company  so I know  it takes time (then money ) for implementing software functionalities , even simple ones …  So I think that ML has decided to limit the functionalities of the Vanquish to be able to offer it at a competitive price, starting from 340e. But only ML could answer to this , I do not know if they look at this forum … 🙂

I would agree with you except that in the case of Vanquish, Equinox came first so the base code was already developed.  All they are doing is packaging it in a simpler interface and removing features.  Seems to me, removing less features (like Equinox's single frequency capability) would actually require less engineering effort.  So it is not cost driving this decision.  It was a somewhat arbitrary market driven decision, perhaps simplification in the name of attracting less experienced detectorists to the hobby who don't want to have to deal with a lot of technical bells and whistles  (the Ace objective).  Look at the Equinox 600 vs. 800.  Exactly the same hardware save for an extra membrane switch (the user profile button) and some icons on the LCD.  Exactly the same firmware package for both (Equinox updates have the same version number regardless of model).  You apparently only have a SW/HW flag that gives the detector it's "personality" whether it is the 800 or the more simplified 600.  From a manufacturer cost standpoint there are absolutely no differences between the two machines other than the need to have a slightly different assembly line path for each detector due to the minor control panel differences.  Yet one costs $250 more than the other.  Yes, the 800 comes with additional wireless hardware.  Subtract out the cost of that hardware ($260 for the WM08 at retail and $140 for the wireless headphones) the 800 actually costs LESS than the 600.  So the price is not driven at all by features, but by what the market will bear.  ML turned the detecting world on its ear with the Equinox release considering the capability at that price point.  Nokta followed with Simplex, a very capable single frequency detector with pro features.  And the ML offered the Vanquish - unfortunately they targeted Garrett's "old" Ace and undershot and Garrett shrewdly kept their powder dry until they were ready to release Apex and just eclipsed barely ML's Vanquish with Apex, setting it in the sweet spot between Simplex and the Equinox 600 that ML thought they owned with Vanquish.  I can't get over how much that thrills me.  I honestly think ML got just a little TOO complacent with Vanquish.  Great detector nevertheless.  And again, with Apex, jury is still out until the real world results start coming in after release.

[GB_Amateur]

7 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

And the ML offered the Vanquish - unfortunately they targeted Garrett's "old" Ace and undershot and Garrett shrewdly kept their powder dry until they were ready to release Apex and just eclipsed barely ML's Vanquish with Apex, setting it in the sweet spot between Simplex and the Equinox 600 that ML thought they owned with Vanquish.  I can't get over how much that thrills me.  (empasis all mine)

No kidding; I can hear you dancing a jig on your (now damaged) Vanquish from several states away.   We still need to see/feel/hear the Apex perform before we declare it the winner.  This is going to be a lllllooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggg two months.

[Chase Goldman]

6 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

No kidding; I can hear you dancing a jig on your (now damaged) Vanquish from several states away.   We still need to see/feel/hear the Apex perform before we declare it the winner.  This is going to be a lllllooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggg two months.

 

13 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

And again, with Apex, jury is still out until the real world results start coming in after release.

Chuck - you are right that's why I always add the above disclaimer.

As far as the wait, I really am not waiting for Apex.  Certainly not like I was waiting for Equinox.  I have the Deus and Equinox so am completely covered as far as my detecting needs are concerned.  I obtained Simplex and Vanquish just to test them out and perhaps retain them as lower cost backups/loaners that wouldn't break my heart if they got stolen or broke in service.  So when I get around to it I might pick up an Apex when available, but I am not waiting in line or getting on pre-paid waiting lists for it (actually - I will never get on a pre-paid waiting list for ANY detector).  Unless someone sends me a review unit, I will get it when the dust settles.  In the meantime, keep an eye out for a Simplex and Vanquish on the classifieds at some point.

[GB_Amateur]

56 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

So when I get around to it I might pick up an Apex when available, but I am not waiting in line or getting on pre-paid waiting lists for it (actually - I will never get on a pre-paid waiting list for ANY detector).

Not surprising.  My comment about the long wait wasn't referring to buyers as much as for those of us interested in knowing how well it performs.  Both its actual appearance and the looks of its specs and features are promising.  Note I did say "We still need to see/feel/hear the Apex perform before we declare it the winner."  In parallel with you, as much as I'd like to see a company besides ML and N/M finally (in the most recent 5 years that is) have a detector turn some heads for a change, I'm trying to keep my excitement in check until we get performance reports from unbiased users.

[Dances With Doves]

8 hours ago, phrunt said:

Thanks, I'm lazy and have the 11" on as I used it last for prospecting, I love the 11" for gold prospecting, ground coverage and sensitive. It found me a bit on it's last journey too 🙂

I'll put the 15" on and try again and the 11" in 5kHz didn't find any missed silvers with a few attempts.  I found the Vanquish in Jewellery mode and v12 found silvers I missed with the Nox, not sure if that was coincidence but found 5 in an hour or so, so very unlikely that was chance but with everything metal detecting there is a lot of luck involved, there is no way to know you've hit that exact bit of soil before.  We need super accurate GPS that colours in every spot you've been in a set radius like the old school Dos game Styx, had to get rid of all the black 🙂

 I heard the xterra with   15" inch coil and 3kz. was    deep on     US silvers but never tried it .Before I sent it back because of loose connection ,   the xterra 70 with Tornado coil with 7kz.   found me one of the  deepest wheat pennies I ever dug.

[Steve Herschbach]

10 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

ML probably knew that their target Vanquish demographic would probably not miss those features, but more experienced detectorists,  looking for a bargain in Vanquish vs Equinox as perhaps a backup detector, did notice.  And now looking at Apex's price point, it looks like needless cutting of corners on features on ML's part to those folks, steering them towards Apex or an Equonox 600 as a preferred backup detector for those that encounter highly variable ground environments. 

As a result Garrett has introduced a detector with slightly greater appeal across a boader base of detectorists of varying skills and experience vs. ML with Vanquish.  If I am really budget limited, I go with Simplex.  If I want bang for my buck, I go with Apex.

You nailed it with that analysis Hugh.

I would not have done Vanquish the way it was done were I running the show, I would have taken the Equinox pod off the handle. I would have designed a screw on back for the Equinox 600 faceplate that would hold the battery. This would make the pod thicker but still very rain resistant/dunkable if not fully submersible. Just to keep future projected warranty claims down and therefore retail price lower I’d advertise it as rainproof. Without the attached battery in handle setup, the pod could now be mounted on an S rod as was done with Vanquish.

So basically I would have put out a “not submersible” Equinox 500 on an S rod for $549, $100 less than the 600. And released the new coils with it, which would be compatible with existing Equinox detectors, boosting coil sales. Minelab could have done this with no additional development costs of consequence as was no doubt incurred with Vanquish. They would also have benefited from economy of scale using many of the same components and shared coil design. If such a machine existed, Garrett would not have had the opening they had to shoe horn Apex in between Vanquish and Equinox. At best they could undercut the Equinox 500 price with the Apex at $425, but the Minelab name and Equinox feature set would not be a hard sell at the slightly higher price. There could be an Equinox 400 with just Park 1 Mode and Beach 2 Mode and all other features intact for $449 and an even more simplified version (preset ground balance, two recovery speeds, two IB settings) Equinox 300 at $349.

 

[Jeff McClendon]

I know this is mostly about the Apex vs Vanquish controls. Someone asked me on another topic why I would use my Vanquish 1 out of 10 times and use the Equinox the other 9 times. The main reasons would be the lighter weight, coil choices and the really neat shaft system on the Vanquish. I still don't like the RED color or the toy-like plastic of the Vanquish control housing and arm cuff but that very adjustable and collapsable shaft system on the Vanquish is really nice and sets it apart from the Apex. I am fine with the Apex shaft being upgraded to the AT series. But imagine if the Apex came stock with a more modern collapsable, easily packable shaft.......

 

Jeff

[Chase Goldman]

Valid point, Jeff regarding the shaft system, it is nice and compact/light.  If they used Steve's pod concept and the incremental functional line discussed above married to the existing Vanquish shaft system (and cross compatible Equinox/Vanquish coils) that would have been a formidable lineup. What a missed opportunity on ML's part.  The one thing they have going for them is the intervening 7 months that Vanquish has/will have been available vs. the Apex mid-summer release.  Taking it a step further, it would be like having that S-shaft that a non-trivial percentage of Equinox users wanted.  It would have been great to convert Equinox to the Vanquish shaft system.