New Garrett Multiflex 6"x11" Viper Coil

[Chase Goldman]

44 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

(and how much deeper is a round 11" than this?  I'd be interested in hearing opinions, but more importantly, facts.)

In general, in rough terms you can judge coil depth performance of a DD elliptical coil by it's width (the length contributes little to depth performance, mainly just provides additional swing coverage) and say that your coil depth would approximate that of a round coil of equivalent diameter, perhaps a little better.  So you would expect the depth performance of the viper to probably be akin to the 6 inch round of the Equinox (cheated upwards to give the Viper the benefit of the doubt on performance).  So if you are familiar with the 6" coil depth performance on the Equinox vs. the 11" coil, you have your answer.  The delta in depth performance is probably a 2 or 3 inches depending on all the other variables such as ground mineralization, moisture content, target type/compensation, target shape, and target orientation.  Bottom line is that you take some tangible depth penalty with the viper vs. an 11" round DD.  The detectorist has to determine for themselves whether that fact actually matters for their detecting objectives.

[Steve Herschbach]

Coil size is the number one factor governing the ability to separate adjacent targets. Fast recovery speeds are secondary in that a slow machine with a small coil can out separate a fast machine with a larger coil. At the end of the day detectors see all targets that are simultaneously under the coil, and no amount of processing magic can fix that as well as using a small coil.

Using narrow coils is a cheat of sorts. For demonstration purposes people line up coins close together and swing over them. A narrow coil does better on these video demonstrations, and I have no doubt this is the reason for the narrow coil profile here. It better separates two adjacent targets.

This of course ignores what happens in a trash field where there are targets in all directions. Here the length hurts as you still get multiple targets under the coil. A 6” round coil would slay by comparison. But despite this post few will ever see, large numbers of videos will tout the Apex “advanced separation capability” aided by the narrowness of this coil.

But not to knock it. Way better than a round coil in this regard and very effective in all but the densest trash locations.

There is a price to pay in depth. This is in effect a stretched 6” coil and so I don’t expect the stock configuration to be a particular depth monster. They are targeting all the fuss made by machines like Deus and Equinox as regards recovery speed / reactivity here. The fact is all coils are a compromise. Those wanting the best depth from the Apex in sparse trash will want a rounder coil, no doubt in the works. And those truly wanting the best small target sensitivity and the best ability to work in dense trash will be waiting on a smaller coil.

Garrett Viper 6" x 11" Multiflex search coil for Ace Apex metal detector

[Chase Goldman]

In the end, the fact is that with a Garrett machine we are likely guaranteed a plethora of coil choices relatively soon after launch both from Garrett and third parties which renders the stock coil debate somewhat moot.  We are not stuck in the annoying Minelab walled garden of 3 coil choices that are chipped to preclude 3rd party coil innovation.

[GB_Amateur]

46 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

So if you are familiar with the 6" coil depth performance on the Equinox vs. the 11" coil, you have your answer.

Well, I'm not, but you've just given me my next homework assignment!

 

[Steve Herschbach]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

In the end, the fact is that with a Garrett machine we are likely guaranteed a plethora of coil choices relatively soon after launch both from Garrett and third parties which renders the stock coil debate somewhat moot.  We are not stuck in the annoying Minelab walled garden of 3 coil choices that are chipped to preclude 3rd party coil innovation.

The bare facts are when it comes to Apex there is nothing it will do that I can’t do with my Equinox 800. However, Minelab has stonewalled all coil development for the Equinox, and for this one reason alone I will probably get an Apex. Vanquish produced the coils I want for my Equinox but Minelab so far rubs salt in the wounds by making the mold but refusing to make similar coils for the Equinox, a minor investment once the molds are made. Since the Apex actually seems more like a dry land Equinox than a Vanquish (selectable single frequency options) and since Garrett is likely to support rather than suppress optional coils, I see no reason not to lend my support to a U.S. manufacturer who gives at least the appearance of caring more about their customers than the bottom line. I love competition, and I really want to see a U.S. manufacturer step up and compete. I just might turn into a Garrett fan! I think I already am based on this. White's and First Texas are getting really old with me on the single frequency retreads.

 

[Chase Goldman]

2 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I just might turn into a Garrett fan!

I have spent more time in the Garrett forum the past 2 days then I have spent total in the past 2 1/2 years!  I am starting to get a nervous twitch as a result.  Garrett just really smacked one out of the park here if they manage to deliver this thing as advertised.

[Chase Goldman]

3 minutes ago, phrunt said:

I am holding off on an Apex personally as I am sure a high end model won't be far away, it makes little sense to make a low end detector that makes your high end detector look like primitive dinosaur.  An AT Pro/Max replacement with their funky new multi technology won't be far away.  Perhaps they worked out from a marketing/sales point of view it's more beneficial for them to release the cheap model first so people buy it and use it, giving good feedback for it so when they release the high end model sales will launch with people upgrading and others who were on the fence jumping is due to the positive feedback from the low end model.  Not having multi frequency detectors in the line up looks like it will be the nail in the coffin for a few stuck in the past single frequency manufacturers, all the leading sales brands will be the multi freakers.

You might also want to wait to see how Nokta responds.  Might jump start release of their MultiF machine that they did not want to release too soon on the heals of Simplex.

Anyway, Simon, while you are waiting, I suggest you run out and get a Deus.  

 

[Steve Herschbach]

I’m just the opposite. I already have the high end machine in Equinox do don’t need one. But I would like something with better ergonomics and coil selection without giving up too much. I’ll mainly be watching the news on more coils for Apex. If they appear they will be delivering in short order on that then I will pull the trigger. They have until late July to say more on that count. And if NokMak has something in the wings, they would be very wise to tip their hand by then. Otherwise this may suck up a lot of sales they could have made.

Coils Garrett, give us the coils! 

[GB_Amateur]

54 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Not having multi frequency detectors in the line up looks like it will be the nail in the coffin for a few stuck in the past single frequency manufacturers....

How do the reports of the performance of the MDT 8000 fit with this statement?  They have miniscule market share, for sure, but does their reported performance indicate there is still breathing room for single and selectable frequency?  Throw in the Makro detectors (Kruzer, Anfibio, Simplex) and XP (Deus, ORX).

I think it's always good to step back and ask ourselves "are we enthusiasts representative of the market?"  Understanding of frequencies and their impacts may (or, to be 100% honest, may not) be second nature to us, but not everyone spends many hours each week reading forums.

Garrett probably has the biggest audience of non-enthusiasts in the industry, at least on this continent.  The fact that they've dipped their toe (or maybe more accurate: dove) into the SMF market, though, could really be saying more than what all of us here combined can say.  I agree with you (and others) that the excitement has been ramped up.  Ironically(?) that is without them making any major technological breakthroughs but rather packaging a lot of desirable features into an affordable detector.

Now they are on the hot seat to show this detector lives up to its promise.  A fun (Northern Hemisphere 😏) summer ahead!

 

[Steve Herschbach]

Frequency smequency... what about coils!  X-Coil has proven there is lots of room for innovation, and to this day you can’t get anyone to build a Bigfoot coil again. Too many aftermarket people copy each other making coils that are all similar.