Apex Hybrid Audio = Modulated Audio?

[Chase Goldman]

5 hours ago, Dances With Doves said:

I have a feeling that after the Apex release that minelab will pull a new rabbit out of the   hat.Nox  multi  Iq2 or     vanquish  pro with ground  balance  plus all nox frequencies without waterproof.

As much as I would like to see it, I doubt ML will touch the Vanquish line at all in the near term to address these "missing" features - especially not just in response to Garrett.  Probably would have a negligible impact on sales vs. the non-negligible effort to release a firmware update to "unlock" those features and remap the controls as necessary to accommodate those adjustments.  Would all but be perceived as an admission that they just released a "flawed" Vanquish design (and that they actually listen to their critics and fans - which if that was the case, they would not have  come out with non-cross compatible coils between the Vanquish and Equinox lines). Does not fit ML's style, unlike Nokta whio is plugged into and responsive to user feedback as evidenced by theiir firmware update frequency.   ML will probably stubbornly stick to whatever longer term dev plan they have in the works which hopefully includes a Multi IQ centric and ergonomic facelift of their FBS 2 flagships.  Fine with me.

 

[Chase Goldman]

6 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Simplex = No multifrequency option or selectable frequency options

Vanquish = No selectable frequency options, no ground balance

Apex = No recovery speed setting

And let’s not forget, both Simplex and Vanquish lack...... Hybrid Audio!! 

Ok then, let's do this.  I'll kick off a features thread in the detector comparisons forum... 

[mh9162013]

14 hours ago, Dances With Doves said:

I have a feeling that after the Apex release that minelab will pull a new rabbit out of the   hat.Nox  multi  Iq2 or     vanquish  pro with ground  balance  plus all nox frequencies without waterproof.

I could see something like this...but I don't think it would result in a Vanquish Pro. Instead, there might be an new and improved Equinox (Equinox 1000?) and/or maybe a "cheaper" version of the Equinox line, such as an Equinox 400 or something. This Equinox "400" might be the equivalent of what you call the Vanquish Pro.

[jmaryt]

On 5/24/2020 at 1:00 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

“HYBRID AUDIO SYSTEM - The Apex target audio provides the simplicity of binary audio (found on existing ACE detectors) with the additional benefits of subtle proportional audio for faint targets.”

Binary audio is a fancy name for “beep.” No sound, or full volume beep. A deep target sounds like a shallow target. Beep.

Some people prefer this as they want to be sure to hear all targets no matter what.

Proportional audio means the signal strength is tied to the volume, so now you have strong beeps and medium beeps and faint beeps. This allows experienced detectorists to tell a deep target from a shallow target, or better discern small targets from large targets. However, if you don’t have sharp ears you might miss that faint target. Almost everybody else refers to this as modulated audio.

Garrett is claiming to somehow do both, creating a “hybrid audio.” Strong targets will be clean solid beeps, while fainter targets will be proportional. I guess I’m missing what the difference is here between Garrett’s hybrid audio and normal modulated audio. In modulated audio strong targets do deliver clean solid audio hits, which fade on the weaker targets to fainter audio responses. Sounds just like what they are describing with this “new” hybrid audio.

Don't know, maybe there is some difference in what Garrett is doing compared to the rest. Regardless, I do prefer proportional or modulated audio myself as being more informative about the nature of the target. Good modulated audio makes any kind of depth meter redundant, which is why I guess I never look at them.

this is  true.with 'modulated " audio, one can literally eliminate the 'depth meter"
as the 'weaker, modulated signal tells the operator that a deep,(usually "good" signal)
is beneath the coil,thus contributing to a "sense" of excitement, and anticipation that is difficult to dispel.

(h.h.!)

j.t.

[jmaryt]

On 5/24/2020 at 11:31 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

Simplex = No multifrequency option or selectable frequency options

Vanquish = No selectable frequency options, no ground balance

Apex = No recovery speed setting

And let’s not forget, both Simplex and Vanquish lack...... Hybrid Audio!! 

the "recovery" clock speed internal setting of the apex is the "concern" i have
going forward. as mentioned, it is nonadjustable, so therefore, one doesn't know at this preliminary stage
whether the detector will be "quick" enough in dense trash to be sufficient."non-bias" testing of this instrument
is "critical".these detectors can't be released soon enough! ..i'm just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

[kac]

To address the MK from my experience so far. 2 tone and deep mode are similar in recovery speed but deep mode may have a slower recovery but not by much and are slower much slower and work well in low trash areas.

Beach mode is similar to 2 tone but has disc and gb set for salt.

3 tone is the fastest recovery speed which ideal for the trashiest places with a recovery speed faster than my brain can keep up with.

4 tone I can't say is slower than 3 tone but has much gain and depth with less filtering which makes it tricky to use in high target/trashy areas. You can in many cases hear different targets when moving the coil slowly in 4 tone. I can't hunt in 4 tone as it is tough to follow however I do use it often on target checking.

I am taking a wild guess that the Apex will be much tamer, smoother and easier to use than the 4 tone on the Kruzer/Amphibio machines based off of what Garrett has done in the past. I have a feeling it will be a really easy machine to run and learn. Will it have blistering recovery? Don't know but not having a recovery speed controls is not a deal breaker especially with a machine in that price range. My MK doesn't have recovery speed controls and hasn't been an issue so long as I use the right mode for the job at hand.

Sorry for the long winded response.

[jmaryt]

1 hour ago, kac said:

To address the MK from my experience so far. 2 tone and deep mode are similar in recovery speed but deep mode may have a slower recovery but not by much and are slower much slower and work well in low trash areas.

Beach mode is similar to 2 tone but has disc and gb set for salt.

3 tone is the fastest recovery speed which ideal for the trashiest places with a recovery speed faster than my brain can keep up with.

4 tone I can't say is slower than 3 tone but has much gain and depth with less filtering which makes it tricky to use in high target/trashy areas. You can in many cases hear different targets when moving the coil slowly in 4 tone. I can't hunt in 4 tone as it is tough to follow however I do use it often on target checking.

I am taking a wild guess that the Apex will be much tamer, smoother and easier to use than the 4 tone on the Kruzer/Amphibio machines based off of what Garrett has done in the past. I have a feeling it will be a really easy machine to run and learn. Will it have blistering recovery? Don't know but not having a recovery speed controls is not a deal breaker especially with a machine in that price range. My MK doesn't have recovery speed controls and hasn't been an issue so long as I use the right mode for the job at hand.

Sorry for the long winded response.

your response is fine! we think alike, in that i WANT to believe that the recovery speed WILL be just fine for junked areas.
if not, then,(in my view) all bets are off ,and the money will be better spent elsewhere.i say this because just about every potential
public park and public place has been ''cooked" and you definitely need all the edge you can get to get it done.a detector that can not 
"see" amongst the trash, and provide enough information to make the dig ,or no dig decision is a no go no matter how many frequencies it transmits into the ground.
.

(h.h.!)

j.t.

[Cal_Cobra]

I had an AT Pro, got it after they released it and held onto it for a couple of years.  It was a very capable VLF machine.  In Pro mode, their iron audio conveyed a lot of intel (never used the non-pro mode, couldn't stand that door bell binary audio).  It found stuff in iron that my F75 couldn't see.  My main beef with the ATP was it lacked depth at the sites I hunted (med-high mineralized soil).  In tame dirt like the Hoover Boys hunt, it does the job, but put it in F75 3+ bar dirt, it quickly lost depth. 

The SMF functionality should resolve the mineralized ground depth loss issue, so if they get this right, it could be a real contender to the Equinox, but of course that remains to be seen, and (correct me if I'm wrong) being Garretts first foray into SMF land, it may be challenging for it to stand up to the Equinox considering ML has over 20 years of experience in the SMF arena. 

Fun times ahead, choices are always great, the more treasure hunting tools you have, the more goodies you take home 😀

[Cal_Cobra]

On 5/24/2020 at 9:15 PM, Dances With Doves said:

I have a feeling that after the Apex release that minelab will pull a new rabbit out of the   hat.Nox  multi  Iq2 or     vanquish  pro with ground  balance  plus all nox frequencies without waterproof.

Doubt they'll touch the Vanquish until they do a refresh on it years down the road.

I suspect the next thing we'll see is an Equinox Pro w/M-IQ2 and more features that were on the CTX, perhaps the dual number ID system, GPS, color screen, who knows.  If we look at the history of their SMF machines (Sovereign, Explorer line, etc) we've seen them drop their initial product, and then several years later they release a model based on the same technology, with new features, refinements, etc.  Nothing ground breaking generally, but better.   If you look at the Sovereign XS vs XS2A-Pro, there weren't really a lot of differences, but enough that it was a more desirable. 

I have heard through the detector grapevine that even as far back as their Detectival launch, they were already working on the second gen Equinox.  I'm sure they've learned an immense amount of what works well and doesn't on the existing MIQ generation, and maybe they listen to their customers wants and needs with plans to incorporate those features into the next gen Equinox.

Given how popular and successful the Equinox has been, they may be in no hurry to drop a replacement, and may be leveraging their engineering resources on something else. If you think about it, everyone else is playing catch-up to the Equinox bar (SMF price:performance ratio), so they may milk this for a while, and when Garrett, Nokta or (gasp) FTP (don't hold your breath waiting for FTP, you may suffocate) come to the table with a contender, then they may drop the Equinox Pro M-IQ2 machine or whatever they will designate it.  I'd say that Minelab will be hard to beat for the foreseeable future, although I like that Garrett's taking a stab at it.  Competition is great for us consumers, and it's great that they are finally offering these high performance SMF machines at very reasonable prices compared to the likes of the CTX, Etrac, etc.

[Steve Herschbach]

Yeah, CTX replacement at lower price makes the most sense. I’d be surprised if we see anymore GPS from Minelab however. Too many prospectors with conspiracy mindsets complained about Minelab sending the coordinates of their gold patches home to the mothership (complete nonsense) and refusing to use it. Plus people complaining it adds cost and weight to the detectors (negligible in either case). Minelab clearly lost interest in upgrading XChange after the GPZ release and have replaced it entirely with Equinox as the way to get updates, etc. Personally I loved integrated GPS and thought it was only halfway to being fully exploited, but unfortunately few people see it the way I do. I used to actively try and promote integrated GPS, but gave up when I realized I was spitting in the wind. If Minelab drops it the other manufacturers will see it as a failed mistake, confirming they were wise to never try it at all. That era may now be done before it really ever reached its full potential.

But this is a Garrett thread so best to stop speculating on Minelab here. That’s a subject for another forum.