Low Weighted Multi Vs 5/10 Khz To Avoid Tiny Targets

[cjc]

15 hours ago, Argyris said:

Hi everyone, glad to find this wonderfull forum 🙂 This is my first message here so I'll make my intro with an Equinox 800-newbee question:

I must state that I have very limited field time and experience with my brand new Nox 800...and only used it in a local beach since now (dry part) to learn it some. But, my first observation is that even in Beach 1 mode (which is a low weighted multi freq mode) I'm getting super tiny targets, usually tiny micro bits of aluminum or lead. I know that for many this is an advantage in order to hit micro gold jewelry and such on the beach...but sometimes it gets really frustrating and time consuming to chase super tiny bits of metal that my PI pinpointer struggles to hit. Trully, I wasn't prepared for such a sensitivity (which is good for the Nox) but isn't always what I need in trashy sites when I'm playing the odds some and focus only in rings or coins.

So, my understanding based on the above initial beach experience is that, if Beach 1 is so sensitive to tiny staff, then Park 1 (which is also low weighted but not that low weighted as beach 1) should be even more sensitive to tiny micro sized targets. These targets even they are so tiny, they still register VDI >5 cause they usually are micro bits of melted aluminum (nuggets), tiny can slaw or tiny lead, so rejecting 0-5 vdis doesn't get rid of them like it does with small foil.

Now...I'm asking this having inland hunting in the back of my mind also: when hunting in old farm fields with lots of such aluminum/lead tiny pieces, I was used to run in 8 khz with my old Deus to get rid of such tiny targets and still be able to hit high conductive coins or decent sized hammered coins and other decent sized low conductors, gold/silver jewelry etc. My first Nox experience shows that even if I use park 1 mode in these farm fields, I'll still hit hard on these tiny junk pieces even if i notch 0-5 vdis....so I was thinking to maybe use Park 1 in single freq @5 or 10 khz in such cases, and go after all small or decent size coins & rings, but not the super tiny 1-5 mm diameter junk...My understanding, however, is that with single freq I'll lose the advantage of VDI stability in depth that multi offers.....and maybee will have up-averaging vdi issues..... What are your thoughts on this?

Take as a fact that, time efficient wise, both when inland hunting or beach hunting, I want to focus only in gold/silver rings and small to decent size coins, but eliminate all tiny 1-5mm micro staff (even if I lose a gold chain/earring on the beach or a really tiny hammered coin on the field)...With the Deus @8khz this strategy was working pretty good and I was able to hit even small thin silver 10mm hammered coins...but not the 1-5mm junk....what about the Nox, what would you propose?

ps. Below, a sample of these tiny aluminum bits...they read at 12-15 vdi range so unfortunatelly I can's avoid them through notching cause I'll lose the gold also.

So I need a strategy that eliminates by size (tiny ones) and not by conductivity!

Best,

Argyris

 

 

I'll say this:  for sure you have a very sensitive detector.  Many are not used to this level of small object sensitivity and struggle to focus on worthwhile targets.  I would suggest that you undertake some serious bench testing.  This takes time.  Get yourself  a standard sized tester--a ring or coin and put it on an upside down cardboard box.  Test with the coil at various distances.  This "hand to ear to eye" recognition is a critical skill and no setting change will stand it for it.  Use the cross-sweep to get a feel for how solid and consistent something is.  With practice these micro conductors will become less of a problem.  When you want tiny targets--instead of just reducing the detector's response--you will be able to be alerted to the best, most solid ones.   Learn to correlate signal strength, target size, loudness, and the depth reading--this is where the information you want can be found.  There aren't really any shortcuts.  Too many on FB and some of the  forums want to try and make a "science" of having no basic skills--almost random digging.  It can't be done.   Looking for "sets" of target characteristics in exactly this way is the key to becoming an accurate and effective hunter.  Take your time and learn your basics--this kind of awareness will come.  Walk first--it will make you a better runner down the line.  Good Luck, clive

[mn90403]

1 hour ago, FloridaSon said:

For what it's worth a friend of mine has done well on Florida beaches using Beach 1 high sensitivity in the wet sand as the waves go out. I will be trying this myself (due to Beach 1 micro targets and falsing) next time I go. I always check other settings to meet the soil and EMI conditions.

I like what it's worth.  I use Beach 1 just about always at 23.  We have high mineralization lines sometimes which make me go down slightly but I prefer 23.  I will reground balance often because at the top of the slope there is less iron and wetness.  What I will do on some beaches is change the speed which lengthens the sound.  

When I interrogate a target I do it with swings.  When I am gridding a productive area I also make sure I don't swing too fast.  When digging targets they sometimes get 'lost' but I have to remember that they ARE there and I'll find it still in the hole or it came out previously.

Today I was digging in stainless steel scrap which is a bit of a problem.  Sometimes you hear the shape and sometimes you hear the metal but stainless is not an iron sound.  I got a thick silver braclet today and it was several numbers 28+ which just means to me I have to dig it.

I'm also a great proponent of digging bobby pins.  Their shape sometimes give a false positive but it can mask a better target or sound like a fringe deep target.  I turn up my iron volume but use 50 tone more than any other.

[Jeff McClendon]

Welcome to this great forum Argyris.

Like Chase, I have already met you on another forum and we have private messaged each other. 

Like everyone has said, I would stay in multi (you have no choice in the Beach modes anyway) unless you absolutely have to switch to a single frequency for EMI until you get a lot of hours on your Equinox.

I am really curious about those pieces of "melted aluminum". Are you sure they are aluminum. Was there an aircraft or boat accident at just one beach where you are detecting in Greece or are they found all over the area. Pieces of aluminum that small should be in the +2 to +6 range or so. Maybe melting aluminum raises the target ID number a lot??????

Like Clive (cjc) said, if you have to wade through these small pieces of metal anyway, it would be best to get to know exactly how they respond on the Equinox. I know you are new to the Nox but learning how these pieces of aluminum sound using the pinpoint function would really help me anyway in combination with what the depth meter says, how the audio sounds and if the numbers are solid or jumpy in detect mode. On the depth meter they should read 2 or more depth arrows even if they are shallow since they are so small.  If you get a chance to do some testing I would love to hear how it turns out even if you have to bring some of your beach sand home with you for testing.

glad to have you here,

Jeff

[Argyris]

Wow Guys, what a great welcome response to my very first message in the forum, many thanks for the tremendous help to all of you!!!

Needed some time to read and re-read all the info and tips provided and I’m keeping notes to practice all of them! But if I could sum-up all the messages to just one sentence, that would definitely be: “give it some time to learn the tone nuances and learn to correlate signal strength, target size, loudness, and the depth reading between junk vs coin like targets” as Clive and others said. No way around and I think this is the best piece of advice. Practice, practice, practice. No shortcuts.

Now, in order to make the best out of your responses, I’ll try to categorize and sum-up your key-tips to have my first “cheat-sheet” to try in the beach/field, and also help any other member that maybe reads this topic and runs into the same tiny junk elimination issue:

 

Chase:

- Use single frequency mode (5khz) as a target interrogation tool rather than as my standard mode, and check every “suspect” tiny junk signal by switching to 5khz, to see if it locks on as a decent size coin/ring would do

- Extended practice of the pinpoint mode to differentiate between micro targets vs. rings and coins (signal length, volume and pitch)

- After digging the suspect target and have it out of the hole, quit chasing it if my pointer doesn’t get it, to save my time

 

Steve:

- Try very low weighted Beach 2 mode (wherever tiny aluminum junk is a major issue, beach or inland) to eliminate tiny low conductivity targets but still hit hard on decent size coins/rings

- In places where most valuable targets are expected at depth and not in the surface, play the odds and take advantage of DD coil tendency to triple signal on shallow stuff to ignore them

 

Mike:

- Try the VCO mode (gold mode in equinox) to identify tiny sized targets vs coin/ring size targets. Chase also mentioned this as an alternative to the pinpoint mode to size the suspect targets. The tiny stuff will sound tiny and the good targets will sound robust.  

 

Clive:

- Undertake some serious bench testing with coin/ring size targets vs tiny junk to train my ears on the nuances “sets of signal characteristics” of both. Learn to correlate signal strength, target size, loudness, and the depth reading. Looking for "sets" of target characteristics in exactly this way is the key to becoming an accurate and effective hunter. Great piece of advice here, I think it describes best the quintessence of effective hunting.

 

Jeff: (hi mate 😊 , glad to have you here also!)

-  Learn how these pieces of aluminum sound using the pinpoint function in combination with what the depth meter says, how the audio sounds and if the numbers are solid or jumpy in detect mode.

Ps. To Jeff: Yes, these tiny pieces of (melted aluminum?) metal are everywhere in my local nearby beaches, but I don’t know yet if they also exist in other areas to make a clue…They do read pretty high for aluminum but maybe because they are solid pieces rather than can slaw?

Attached I made a picture of them with their VDIs in Beach 1…I included some small ones (the difficult ones I'm mentioning in this post), but some big ones also to make a clue of the matterial, with a silver dime in the pic to compare their size. As you can see, even the smaller ones come in teens range of vdi and strange thing that the size doesn't always corelate with their size....most of them are jumpy in vdi (that's a first clue) so I wrote the most dominant vdi of the range for each item. See pic below.

 

Again, thanks everyone for the great tips provided…I now have some tools to try and will come back with results and thoughts!

 

Best,

Argyris

[Jackpine]

Try raising the coil a bit.  If they are small but read in the teens they should drop out sooner than a ring.  Won't help on the faint, near the edge of detection targets, those will have to be dug.  18 and above in your pic will have to be dug regardless.

[Joe D.]

Great summary Argyris,  

I'll have to print for future reference! And thank's to the contributors!

Thanks!👍👍

 

[Chase Goldman]

12 hours ago, cjc said:

I'll say this:  for sure you have a very sensitive detector.  Many are not used to this level of small object sensitivity and struggle to focus on worthwhile targets.  I would suggest that you undertake some serious bench testing.  This takes time.  Get yourself  a standard sized tester--a ring or coin and put it on an upside down cardboard box.  Test with the coil at various distances.  This "hand to ear to eye" recognition is a critical skill and no setting change will stand it for it.  Use the cross-sweep to get a feel for how solid and consistent something is.  With practice these micro conductors will become less of a problem.  When you want tiny targets--instead of just reducing the detector's response--you will be able to be alerted to the best, most solid ones.   Learn to correlate signal strength, target size, loudness, and the depth reading--this is where the information you want can be found.  There aren't really any shortcuts.  Too many on FB and some of the  forums want to try and make a "science" of having no basic skills--almost random digging.  It can't be done.   Looking for "sets" of target characteristics in exactly this way is the key to becoming an accurate and effective hunter.  Take your time and learn your basics--this kind of awareness will come.  Walk first--it will make you a better runner down the line.  Good Luck, clive

Thanks for weighing in Clive, you are one of the great experts on coil control and learning the language of the machine.  Plus you DO have a few settings tricks up your sleeve too.  But you are absolutely right, nothing substitutes for building the "brain muscle memory" of swinging the machine for hundreds of hours so it all clicks without having to think about it.  Settings can help you get in the ballpark and help you learn but they can't instantly make you an expert.  NO shortcuts.   And no matter how experienced you are, you will still get fooled.  But you feel less surprised when it happens because you have appropriately set your expectations from the 10-hour swing timer  "I bet it's a ring" attitude to the 200 hour swing timer "I'm pretty sure I'm digging a tab" attitude - and the surprises are then usually good surprises.

[Chase Goldman]

3 hours ago, Argyris said:

Wow Guys, what a great welcome response to my very first message in the forum, many thanks for the tremendous help to all of you!!!

Needed some time to read and re-read all the info and tips provided and I’m keeping notes to practice all of them! But if I could sum-up all the messages to just one sentence, that would definitely be: “give it some time to learn the tone nuances and learn to correlate signal strength, target size, loudness, and the depth reading between junk vs coin like targets” as Clive and others said. No way around and I think this is the best piece of advice. Practice, practice, practice. No shortcuts.

Now, in order to make the best out of your responses, I’ll try to categorize and sum-up your key-tips to have my first “cheat-sheet” to try in the beach/field, and also help any other member that maybe reads this topic and runs into the same tiny junk elimination issue:

 

Chase:

- Use single frequency mode (5khz) as a target interrogation tool rather than as my standard mode, and check every “suspect” tiny junk signal by switching to 5khz, to see if it locks on as a decent size coin/ring would do

- Extended practice of the pinpoint mode to differentiate between micro targets vs. rings and coins (signal length, volume and pitch)

- After digging the suspect target and have it out of the hole, quit chasing it if my pointer doesn’t get it, to save my time

 

Steve:

- Try very low weighted Beach 2 mode (wherever tiny aluminum junk is a major issue, beach or inland) to eliminate tiny low conductivity targets but still hit hard on decent size coins/rings

- In places where most valuable targets are expected at depth and not in the surface, play the odds and take advantage of DD coil tendency to triple signal on shallow stuff to ignore them

 

Mike:

- Try the VCO mode (gold mode in equinox) to identify tiny sized targets vs coin/ring size targets. Chase also mentioned this as an alternative to the pinpoint mode to size the suspect targets. The tiny stuff will sound tiny and the good targets will sound robust.  

 

Clive:

- Undertake some serious bench testing with coin/ring size targets vs tiny junk to train my ears on the nuances “sets of signal characteristics” of both. Learn to correlate signal strength, target size, loudness, and the depth reading. Looking for "sets" of target characteristics in exactly this way is the key to becoming an accurate and effective hunter. Great piece of advice here, I think it describes best the quintessence of effective hunting.

 

Jeff: (hi mate 😊 , glad to have you here also!)

-  Learn how these pieces of aluminum sound using the pinpoint function in combination with what the depth meter says, how the audio sounds and if the numbers are solid or jumpy in detect mode.

Ps. To Jeff: Yes, these tiny pieces of (melted aluminum?) metal are everywhere in my local nearby beaches, but I don’t know yet if they also exist in other areas to make a clue…They do read pretty high for aluminum but maybe because they are solid pieces rather than can slaw?

Attached I made a picture of them with their VDIs in Beach 1…I included some small ones (the difficult ones I'm mentioning in this post), but some big ones also to make a clue of the matterial, with a silver dime in the pic to compare their size. As you can see, even the smaller ones come in teens range of vdi and strange thing that the size doesn't always corelate with their size....most of them are jumpy in vdi (that's a first clue) so I wrote the most dominant vdi of the range for each item. See pic below.

 

Again, thanks everyone for the great tips provided…I now have some tools to try and will come back with results and thoughts!

 

Best,

Argyris

I hunt at a farm that has a lot of molten aluminum globs due to a tractor fire.  They sound pretty good but "slightly" hollow.  I am not going to sit here and tell you that I could really tell the difference between those globs of aluminum and the 160 year old brass and lead-backed cartridge box Eagle Breast Plate in the center of the picture below, but I did dial it in and knowingly bypassed some additional globs before I dug the Breast Plate which rang up high too, but did sound different due to its symmetry and metal mass.  Also pictured is a crushed aluminum can and a nice "high ringing" rusted nut and bolt.

[Argyris]

3 hours ago, Joe D. said:

Great summary Argyris,  

I'll have to print for future reference! And thank's to the contributors!

Thanks!👍👍

 

Thanks Mate 🙂 Feel free to use my "cheat-sheet" attached below....this will be my "newbie toolbox" till I gain the "brain muscle memory" as I did with the Deus also!

Best,

Argyris

[Joe D.]

  Argyris,

  I can see why the other's remember you!  I "Like👍" you alot already!!🤣👍👍