New Garrett Ace Apex Versus The Rest

[Jeff McClendon]

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2 hours ago, Nuke em said:

The X.Terra are brilliant on dry tops and the numbers were accurate on UK coins. Cashless society is killing that now.

Also my thread about headphones applies here.

The Nox has 40 numbers and most low tone coins are in most low tone rubbish. 

On the ET it is so easy . and the tones are brilliant. Again my headphones thread.

Minelab need to supply the right headphones with high toned fluty machines. Or depth and difference in target I.d. cannot easily be achieved.

Anyway Nox is going. Maybe Minelab will tempt me to a new machine or maybe not ? 

 

I will most likely be buying an Apex when there has been enough time after the release to make sure that it isn't an ugly dog. I am very interested to see if Garrett has come through with a competitive, modern detector. 

I have used every detector that I have mentioned in my posts and have definite opinions about them which are just my opinions and not fact as others might have different detecting conditions from me.

First let's set the record straight about a few things. The Apex has 60 nonferrous and 40 ferrous numerical target ID segments which can be notched 5 at a time and 5 audio tones. That is my understanding from looking at the current specification sheet for the Apex. The Equinox has 40 nonferrous and 10 ferrous numerical target ID segments which can be notched 1 at a time. The Vanquish 540 has 40 nonferrous and 10 ferrous numerical target ID segments that can be notched 2 at a time and 5 audio tones. The Equinox does have 1, 2, 5 (and the capability for making it a 3 or 4 tones on the Nox 800) and 50 tones. I have counted those 50 tones so they are not a supposition. Those who are calmly reading this can draw their own conclusions.

I have not used an Apex yet. I have used every AT Series and most of the Ace series detectors. In the USA, these detectors are not known for phenomenal depth or for accurate numerical target IDs on deeper coin sized targets past 4 to 6" in depth no matter what stock or after market coil is being used. I sincerely hope that the Apex will have at least comparable depth capabilities and much better numerical target ID accuracy on deeper targets than the current Ace and AT series. That would make it a huge improvement in my opinion. If it is based on FBS or VFlex (hopefully that was a mistake Nuke Em) I'm okay with FBS (Minelab might not be). I am not okay if the Apex is based on VFlex.......????? VFlex was a decent  single frequency technology on the X-Terra series. However, my former XT 50, XT70 and XT705s cannot hold a tiny birthday candle or any other candle compared to the Equinox Multi IQ numerical target ID, tone ID, notching or audio features from my experience. The X-Terras cannot even compete with the Vanquish series (I have used them all and own the 340 and 440) for depth or for target ID accuracy. Some on this forum have experienced an improvement in Multi IQ from the Equinox to the Vanquish. I have never owned an Etrac. I have used the CTX 3030. Those two are famous for their target ID accuracy. I have experienced that using the CTX. I have also experienced in the field that the CTX could not hit small low conductor targets that the Equinox completely nailed and that even on deep coin sized low conductors and iron targets, the Equinox had far better target ID accuracy than the CTX. If the situation is the same with the Etrac, I will stay with the Equinox for now and I am sure that my right shoulder will thank me.

I sincerely hope that Garrett's APEX is a real winner and indicates their ability to actually make a fresh start towards a modern, viable, USA made simultaneous multi frequency detector line.

Jeff

[Cal_Cobra]

8 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

If the Apex actually turns out to be an excellent detector I think (it is already happening on USA Ebay btw) not only will the old stock Ace series sales get hit hard, but the sale of new AT Pro and AT Gold units will also suffer along with the Simplex, Vanquish 540 and Nox 600 here in the USA. The sell off of used Ace series, AT Pros, AT Golds along with GTI 2500 has already begun big time on Ebay and on Craigslist at least in my area.

Cal Cobra, it is my understanding that the Apex is 5 tones, pitch is not adjustable, tone breaks are not adjustable, tone breaks may not be the same in different modes.......?  I am just glad Garrett is producing a detector with more than 3 tones!!!!!

Jeff

Thanks Jeff.   Although I look forward to field reports from trusted advisors on the Ace Apex, I'll be awaiting their Apex Pro (or whatever they decide to call it). 

Hopefully Garrett is listening to their prospects for features that customers would like to use (AKA "pay for" 🤠) on their Apex Pro line.  I would definitely like to see them have a 50 or even 99 tone mode as long as the audio is good.  For example the F75 has a Delta Pitch mode with 99 tones, and it's terrible.  The audio is about as artificial sounding as it gets, very unpleasant to the ears, and just not something one would ever want to use (don't believe it was ever popular).  Contrast that to multi tones on the EQ, which is highly used because the audio is non-intrusive to the ears, similar to previous generations of FBS/FBS2 machines, and conveys a lot of intel on targets, this is a feature I would like to use on the Apex Pro.  I'm not asking for it to be an EQ, just have a multi-tone option. 

 

[Chase Goldman]

5 minutes ago, Cal_Cobra said:

I'll be awaiting their Apex Pro

Be prepared to wait awhile - at least that's what Steve Moore said when asked about future iterations of Apex's design.  We'll just have to see what happens.

[Chase Goldman]

9 hours ago, Nuke em said:

The X.Terra are brilliant on dry tops and the numbers were accurate on UK coins. Cashless society is killing that now.

Also my thread about headphones applies here.

The Nox has 40 numbers and most low tone coins are in most low tone rubbish. 

On the ET it is so easy . and the tones are brilliant. Again my headphones thread.

Minelab need to supply the right headphones with high toned fluty machines. Or depth and difference in target I.d. cannot easily be achieved.

Anyway Nox is going. Maybe Minelab will tempt me to a new machine or maybe not ? 

 

Finally - you've been complaining so long about the Nox while at the same time repeatedly sharing your finds pouch tallies which which seemed impressive enough - I always wondered what all the complaining was about.  I am surprised it took this long before you threw in the towel but I see that were wisely timing it to squeeze it for as long as possible while dumping it while it still has warranty in the tank.  Not sure I would get on the time machine and go back to the ET but that's your decision and I guess if the price is right...  Based on your complaints about EQ not sure Apex is necessarily going to float your boat.  It will be a good machine but has A LOT of limitations vs. Equinox.  Those limitations may or may not matter to you as long as Multi-Salt and the Garrett tones work for you (you are going to have to deal with a 1/8" headphone socket though ), but for versatility, the Nox will still come out on top for general usage.

Jeff addressed some of the inaccuracies in your post regarding the Nox target ID setup so I won't bother there other than to say having 100 segments is not necessarily better.  I have yet to see a 100 segment target ID implementation that truly takes advantage of that high RESOLUTION while simultaneously providing the stability and repeatability necessary to take advantage of that resolution.

Jeff and Cal also addressed the utility of multitones.  5 tones is great in some situations but I find that 50/full tone implementations are useful in providing nuanced audio target information that is simply not available with 2, 3, or 5 tones because clues such as tone ID stability and tone harmonics/distortion are usually not as prevealent in setups that use 5 or less tones.  Knowing how to use 50 tones to your advantage is a key to not having to worry about whether those "low tone coins are in most low tone rubbish", as you put it.  Bottom line, I like to have choices when it comes to tone selections.  I don't necessarily need to have to be able to fiddle with individual tone breaks, pitches, and volumes (and I would note that is not necessary in full/50 tone setups).  But I do like to have a choice, independent of mode, of whether I want to use 2-tone, 3-tone, 5-tone, 50 tone or pitch audio and right now only Deus allows me to do that with Equinox a close second (it doesn't have pitch tone audio except that which is rigidly implemented in Gold mode).  Vanquish and Apex are locked in this regard, and Simplex is pretty limited.   It probably won't stop me from eventually trying out the Apex to assess it's Multi F capabilities especially at it's reasonable price point.

[Dances With Doves]

In the turf the nox is way more accurate then xterra on deep coins.It(  Xterra)     up averages them when they get deep.In some places it' s no big deal because you     dig all anyway   because you are going for rings and coins.In some places you are digging to many pulltabs.The xterra is a  great turf gold machine and tot lot machine with 18kz. I also have done good for silver coins  with 10" 7kz coil.Still not as good as nox to me. The xterra is a machine that  does many things well  do to coil change system.I  never tried a 3kz. dd  coil on this machine.I think I will buy a 7  " 3kz dd. coil called Lion from Mars to see what it could do  since it is cheap  compared to digger coil from coiltech.

[Mike Hillis]

It's a Garrett.   It's going to be a Garrett.   Its not going to be anything else.   I fully expect their the Multi-IQ to offer nothing more than full spectrum target detection and salt cancellation.

Audio is personal.   I dislked the Xterra audio but enjoy the F75 delta pitch audio and hunt in dp fairly often...unless the iron & hot rocks get too noisy then I switch to 1N or 2F.   But then again I'm a bit hard of hearing in one ear and headphones make a difference.

HH
Mike

 

[Dances With Doves]

Good point Mike.Audio is personal.I could interpret  the iffy  hits on the Xterra very   well and  did great for gold. Others may  not like it.  It sounds  close to nox for audio which made the learning curve easy.I use Tony Eis. headphone and love them.

[Cal_Cobra]

42 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

Be prepared to wait awhile - at least that's what Steve Moore said when asked about future iterations of Apex's design.  We'll just have to see what happens.

No worries there, the EQ800 has been serving me well, and I still have the MMK, although truth be told, since getting the EQ800 dialed in, the MMK has been collecting some dust as my backup unit.

I look forward to the field results on the Apex, if it takes Garrett a couple of years to launch their Apex Pro, that's  fine with me.  I'm sure they'll continue to milk the ATM (AT Max, not automatic teller machines) for a while and once sales tapper off on that, the Apex Pro will come to light.  That's good, gives them plenty of time to get it right, and by that time the EQ2/MIQ2 machines will likely be out, as well as the Nokta SMF.  All good in my book, it'll be great to have this many options.  Imagine if the Explorer series had a serious competitor all the years that it reigned supreme as the deep silver seeker it is, maybe even FTP would've came to life 🙂  Sure they took a stab at the Explorer market with their CZ70, but it was too little too late IMO.  Darn good machine, I know it opened doors for me, but the likes of the Explorer2 and Etrac can run circles around it for deep silver slaying in trashy parks.

[Chase Goldman]

7 minutes ago, Cal_Cobra said:

No worries there, the EQ800 has been serving me well, and I still have the MMK, although trust be told, since getting the EQ800 dialed in, the MMK has been collecting some dust.

I look forward to the field results on the Apex, if it takes Garrett a couple of years to launch their Apex Pro, that's just fine with me.  I'm sure they'll continue to milk the ATM (AT Max, not cash machines) for a while and once sales tapper off on that, the Apex Pro will come to light.  That's good, gives them plenty of time to get it right, and by that time the EQ2/MIQ2 machines will likely be out, as well as the Nokta SMF.  All good in my book, it'll be great to have this many options.  Imagine if the Explorer series had a serious competitor all the years that it reigned supreme as the deep silver seeker it is, maybe even FTP would've came to life 🙂  Sure they took a stab at the Explorer market with their CZ70, but it was too little too late IMO.  Darn good machine, I know it opened doors for me, but the likes of the Explorer2 and Etrac can run circles around it for deep silver slaying in trashy parks.

Agree - I'm not wanting for the Apex or Apex Pro right now (or any machine, frankly) but would like to get my hands on the Apex at some point just to see how Garrett did with Multi F.  Then it will come down to what Garret and Minelab do for an encore after Apex and Nox/Vanquish a couple years down the road.

[Cal_Cobra]

24 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

Jeff and Cal also addressed the utility of multitones.  5 tones is great in some situations but I find that 50/full tone implementations are useful in providing nuanced audio target information that is simply not available with 2, 3, or 5 tones because clues such as tone ID stability and tone harmonics/distortion are usually not as prevealent in setups that use 5 or less tones.  Knowing how to use 50 tones to your advantage is a key to not having to worry about whether those "low tone coins are in most low tone rubbish", as you put it. 

Once I got tuned into 50 tones, when I went back and tried 5 tones in beach mode, it felt contrived, and it felt like you were missing that great full tone audio intel.

 It probably won't stop me from eventually trying out the Apex to assess it's Multi F capabilities especially at it's reasonable price point.

I look forward to your detailed report on the Apex.  You and I hunt similar relic sites, and I know you'll put it through the proper paces and having the ability to seriously compare it to the EQ800 will be a huge benefit to many of us 👍