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2 hours ago, Dances With Doves said:

In the turf the nox is way more accurate then xterra on deep coins.It(  Xterra)     up averages them when they get deep.In some places it' s no big deal because you     dig all anyway   because you are going for rings and coins.In some places you are digging to many pulltabs.The xterra is a  great turf gold machine and tot lot machine with 18kz. I also have done good for silver coins  with 10" 7kz coil.Still not as good as nox to me. The xterra is a machine that  does many things well  do to coil change system.I  never tried a 3kz. dd  coil on this machine.I think I will buy a 7  " 3kz dd. coil called Lion from Mars to see what it could do  since it is cheap  compared to digger coil from coiltech.

I've actually found that the EQ800 also up-averages deep coins, and I actually LIKE that.  Once I get a semi-repeatable, high TID with that tinkly silver sound, I know the odds are that it'll be a deep silver coin.

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12 minutes ago, Cal_Cobra said:

I've actually found that the EQ800 also up-averages deep coins, and I actually LIKE that.  Once I get a semi-repeatable, high TID with that tinkly silver sound, I know the odds are that it'll be a deep silver coin.

True that, but any multifrequency unit is far less prone to up averaging than a single frequency detector. In my ground a deep rolled up beavertail reads as a dime on every single frequency detector I have tested. That is a big jump, and quite annoying. Not an issue I encounter with multi.

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1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

True that, but any multifrequency unit is far less prone to up averaging than a single frequency detector. In my ground a deep rolled up beavertail reads as a dime on every single frequency detector I have tested. That is a big jump, and quite annoying. Not an issue I encounter with multi.

I had that exact issue with my F75, not that the F75 was a terrible machine by any means, I made a ton of great finds with it, but it wasn't stellar in regards to TID IMHO.

 

Interestingly I've had deep silver dimes up-average between 28-32, but that modulated deep whisper audio is unmistakable.  Love it, especially when you PP it and you get no audio, you know it's going to be deep.

 

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So, I hope that the Apex will be able to do what I will describe here. Just got back from a coin hunt in very dry mineralized turf and dirt with the Equinox 600, Park 2 50 tones. All older coins were 6 to 8" deep. No silver.....boo hoo. Every clad dime  was 24 to 27,  pre-1982 and 1950s wheat pennies were 26 to 30 and clad quarters were 28 to 31. The real amazing things were the 6 to 8" 1950s to 1970s US nickels that were all rock solid 12/13 along with all of the beaver tail pull tabs that were 14 to 18 depending on how complete they were and if they were folded up or not. 

This has been my experience since day one with the Equinox 600 and 800. Once I learned these tendencies modern US coin hunting became a cinch. The only wild card are the condition of post 1982 zinc pennies, Today, the shallow ones were  19,20,21. The deeper more corroded ones were 18 to 30 but mostly 19 to 21. I have found a similar situation in my dirt on zinc pennies so far with the Vanquish and the Whites DFX in multi best data Coin and Jewelry.

As most of you know, any single frequency VLF I own or have owned will severely up average low to mid conductors into the very high conductor range past 3 to 4".

I look forward to seeing how the Apex handles the dirt around here.

Jeff

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My experience with the Terra 705 over a 8 year period from 2011 to 2018 got me £9850 in coinage and 14 Gold rings and around 100 Silver rings , on top of the finds by the ET and Explorer's I have used in that time . The Terra on UK coinage was very accurate especially in airy sand and shingle . I cannot say the same for the Nox where it comes to numbers . The numbers are shared with so much trash that on my beaches it slows you down. 

The Nox has found me 7 Gold and around 70 Silver rings over the time I have used it since release. But the finds I found were not outside the scope of the ET or even the Terra in the right places (dry or wet) . 

And as I have said about headphones , all Minelab machines should be given in the box high toned headphones that match the tones of the machines. Many people say the Nox isn't deep and that the ET isn't too. I say set up right and with the best headphones that sound off higher give better depth . 

I have found minute pieces of trash on the beaches with the ET and Explorer's and with my ET at the time I found a Celtic Quarter Stater (10mm diameter less than 2 gram) . The ET finds low conductors just fine. And I found a Roman Minim coin which was 3 mm in diameter at 5 or 6 inches back in 2006 (now that's small) ! with an Explorer 11 or SE .

But in the end its all to do with the headphones , if you hear the targets you will find them , if the targets are quiet because of low bass headphones you are likely to miss them . Especially if in trash of similar types. 

I can hear a pull tab and a 20p coin in the same place with my ET and know the 20p is there . I have had £1 coins in trash and I have heard them in low tone rubbish . I could never do that with Koss / Nox and other Bass toned headphones and I bet not many others could neither.

In fact my at the time Explorer SE found all 4 of my low tone cut Quarter hammered Silver Henry 111 / Edward 1 Pennies . They are very low toned and around 7 mm in size. Cut quarters are Silver Penny coins of the Medieval times that have been cut into 4 quarters . They are then called Farthings . They produced Half Pennies and proper Farthings later in the early Edward years I think. I have a few of the Halfpennies and 2 cut Half Pennies of Henry 111 and King Steven .

If the Apex is based on the FBS I wont be complaining , and as it says its Multi Flex . My guess is that it is based on the V. Flex and has the FBS too . As all those patents are now past there dates I reckon.

As for depth of Garrett machines , I wont complain about that either , here in the UK on digs Ace users are renowned for taking home very decent finds of all types . Most decent targets in the ground are usually in the first 8 inches and most reasonable machines will do that . 

Garrett machines are better than many think. And now they are venturing into Multi Frequency .

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 Multi Flex is just a marketing name made up in a meeting. It does not mean it derived from anything prior. People just make this stuff up. I was in on the brainstorming that lead to Multi-IQ. One of my contributions.... Bar-B-Q...cooks the competition! :laugh:

V-Flex was all about sending the signal from the coil to control box in digital instead of analog form. It has nothing to do with the processing other than the conversion from analog to digital is done at the coil instead of in the control box. The coil and control box talk to each other.

image.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

The real amazing things were the 6 to 8" 1950s to 1970s US nickels that were all rock solid 12/13 along with all of the beaver tail pull tabs that were 14 to 18 depending on how complete they were and if they were folded up or not.

Hope we're not going off-topic....  I've been detecting exclusively in Park 1 and in 69 hours this year of hunting the same park I've dug almost 400 pulltabs (~190 beavertails alone, ~110 smaller ring+beavertails).  My dig requirement is majority of TIDs in 12-13 and none lower than 11, none higher than 14.  But very few of these hit 14 and a minority show 11's.  Yes, I've found ~70 nickels with these selection criteria, but I'm still digging a majority of pulltabs.

I guess I need to try Park 2.  I just assumed (we all know what that means...) I was avoiding the tiny targets as the Equinox user manual suggests.

If I were digging 14-18 I'd easily have a thousand more pulltabs, but those are either the larger R&B combos or just the broken off larger rings, plus of course the square tabs.  (I do dig the smaller ring-only tabs only which hit 13 consistently, particularly if they are bent.)

Any thoughts, Jeff and others?

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28 minutes ago, Nuke em said:

If the Apex is based on the FBS I wont be complaining , and as it says its Multi Flex . My guess is that it is based on the V. Flex and has the FBS too . As all those patents are now past there dates I reckon.

Respectfully, you reckon wrong on those patents. Most of the other experiences you relayed in your message are your opinions and I respect them. I have not had the same experiences as you for sure.

Jeff

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2 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

Hope we're not going off-topic....  I've been detecting exclusively in Park 1 and in 69 hours this year of hunting the same park I've dug almost 400 pulltabs (~190 beavertails alone, ~110 smaller ring+beavertails).  My dig requirement is majority of TIDs in 12-13 and none lower than 11, none higher than 14.  But very few of these hit 14 and a minority show 11's.  Yes, I've found ~70 nickels with these selection criteria, but I'm still digging a majority of pulltabs.

I guess I need to try Park 2.  I just assumed (we all know what that means...) I was avoiding the tiny targets as the Equinox user manual suggests.

If I were digging 14-18 I'd easily have a thousand more pulltabs, but those are either the larger R&B combos or just the broken off larger rings, plus of course the square tabs.  (I do dig the smaller ring-only tabs only which hit 13 consistently, particularly if they are bent.)

Any thoughts, Jeff and others?

GB - 

Just a little off topic. . .

Your data matches mine. IF I am hunting in a park and looking for nickels, especially older nickels, I find that the tab or the beaver tail portion (often folded over) of a pull tab, target ID's the same as a nickel; 12/13 on my 800 in my area.


What to do?  In general, I like digging nickels.  A lot of them have been left behind by previous generations of coin hunters AND there is always that small, small chance a gold ring will turn up instead.

How do I deal with these nuisance targets? They are frustrating and very common.

In an older park, I usually do NOT find the beaver tail segments DEEP like the older buffalo and V nickels.  Yet, these smaller pieces of aluminum, due to size, will read deeper than they actually are on my depth meter. So I will have an audio mismatch with the depth meter.

Here's what I do; On a legitimate deep coin / target, I will quickly lose the signal if I lift the coil further away from the ground as I sweep the target. This is due to the target being at or near the fringe of detection. With a folded tab at 3-4-5 inches, this is NOT the case.  As I lift the coil away from a shallower folded tab. I can usually lift the coil up at least 5-6 inches before I start losing the signal. This tells me that the target, though appearing to be deep on the depth meter, is likely NOT DEEP and thus, is less likely to be a deep nickel.

Of course, the unknown target could be a larger than coin sized item that is deep and if I decide NOT to dig, i may be leaving another good target for future generations.  Or it could be a smaller piece of gold jewelry.  What to do?

For a few years, I kept pull tab and tab / beaver tail stats on my detecting records sheet for park hunting wanting to know my percentages.  Then, after reading some excellent advise from Mike Hillis, I decided that I would change my jewelry hunting tactics and better select the areas I focus on hunting for jewelry. So when in a non-jewelry area in a park, I can hunt for deep nickels and other coins.

Anyway, that is how i deal with those 12-13 signals.  If I am deep coin hunting, I can skip this target as it is NOT a deep coin.  It could be some other type of keeper, but I am not hunting for some other type of keeper, I am deep coin hunting, so statistics tell me to leave it if I want to optimize my time.

Hope that gives you some ideas. Best of luck in the field.

Rich - 

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12 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

True that, but any multifrequency unit is far less prone to up averaging than a single frequency detector. In my ground a deep rolled up beavertail reads as a dime on every single frequency detector I have tested. That is a big jump, and quite annoying. Not an issue I encounter with multi.

 

....Two days ago, a colleague sent me a video from the test of a VLf detector which passed the tested targets..one of one of the targets was a very thin gold chain folded into a ball at a depth of 6cm ... The Golden Mask detector hit it with a nice signal ... as well as other deep targets ...

wrote me ...
The interesting thing about this test was ... that this Analog detector had a very high level of discrimination at the level of up to 5.5 ... which would in any case prevent detection .... if the chain was only on the ground ...because you are already discriminating against 3 .0 ... you are already eliminating such low-conductivity objects...

... we discussed this topic for a while ..because they are analog detectors - so you don't see the ID of the target you are detecting here......

I experienced a similar situation with the detectors Tesoro mojave and golden Mask..where the low-conducting targets in the depths were detectable and severely increased discrimination, which would in any case make it impossible to detect four targets stored in the shallow depths ..

With this simple example, we come to the essence of the problem with the ID of classic VLF detectors, that is, the increase of the ID of objects to be stored at a greater depth ... - to the extent that at the limit of detection can be this ID up to the iron.

As for Garrett's Ace, it is known that even on deep targets with ID 80 and more they give a nice strong bell tone signal ... which in some cases really helps in the effective detection of deep signals.

So far, it is difficult to say how Apex will have the calculation of goals with ID solved, but I feel that the multifrequency here will be very helpful in the correct identification of the goal ...

Equinox - I consider exactly multi-IQ ID in depth to be one of the best features in this detector ... - because it eliminates the shortcomings of the classic VLF detector in the field of shifting the display of ID in depth.

of course..no it will suit everyone......

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