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Question: Detecting In The Neighborhood And Sharing Valuables


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What the others say I'm pretty much in agreement with 🙂  But legality is a fine line.  For example here in NC there are a lot of restrictions and whole counties where detecting is illegal unless its private properties.  Here's  a link I found useful on legalities, this page is for NC but they have other states and localities.  One thing of note is many restrictions rest on the Antiquities Act as the catch all for no detecting.  Generally if I'm quite, clean and pick quite times of the day I can get a little detecting done.  Big thing is if asked to leave, even if you are in the right, do so.  Plenty of places to have a swing.

http://www.mdhtalk.org/cf/city-regulation.cfm?st=NC

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10 hours ago, Tom_in_CA said:

And it is extremely rare for any cities to  have ever dreamed up a  "no md'ing " law.    Personally,  when I'm traveling around,  and pull into a new city,  I do not hesitate to hit any park I come to.    As long as it's not an obvious historic monument,  or unless there is a sign saying "no md'ing ".

 

10 hours ago, 2Valen said:

...Several cities will not allow MD at parks or on city property.

I wonder if we're seeing the East/West effect native gold detectorists know all too well -- land East of the Rockies is basically private and public properties (meaning parks and forests) tightly restricted.  West has a lot of federal lands (BLM and National Forest) which tend to be open to recreational gold detecting.

As some examples, a friend in Louisville asked me to come down and search an old park (Louisville's been around since the late 1700's) but when I looked up their city park regulations it was stated there explicitly that metal detecting was not allowed.  My sister belongs to the Eureka Club in Denver and there are many suburbs there where metal detecting is either completely forbidden or quite resticted on public properties.  One of them (I think it's Wheatridge) allows detecting but you're required to get an annual permit (that part isn't so bad) but also you can't dig within 50 ft of a tree!  Well, I get it that they don't want you to damage the roots...  I've heard of parks where detecting is allowed but digging isn't!  Others restrict the size & shape of recovery tools, which is a fair compromise, IMO.  I seem to recall a post here a while back saying that it's a state law in Tennessee that metal detecting is forbidden on public properties.  I may have misunderstood but interpreted that to include municipal public properties as well.  That would be extremely discouraging if true.  (Can any of you Tennessee posters confirm/clarify?)

I agree with you Tom about travelling around and assuming detecting is OK as long as you read the park rules signs (typically posted).  Then if someone objects you can at least indicate you were conscientious -- checking the rules.  Even if they are correct, you should at least get off the hook, having made a concerted effort to comply.

 

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3 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I wonder if we're seeing the East/West effect native gold detectorists know all too well -- land East of the Rockies is basically private and public properties (meaning parks and forests) tightly restricted.  West has a lot of federal lands (BLM and National Forest) which tend to be open to recreational gold detecting.

Interesting point. I just came across the U.S map of state legislations at mdhtalk.org. Per image below, there is wide discrepancy across the nation, but it looks like most Southern states seem to have banned or highly restricted md:
 

US states MD legislation.PNG

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54 minutes ago, phd_angel said:

...It looks like most Southern states seem to have banned or highly restricted md....

I think that map only refers to metal detecting in state parks -- at least that is what the heading/sentence directly above it seems to indicate.   Again, I could be misinterpreting what 'state parks' mean.  I've always used it in reference to parks that the state operates, not parks operated by other government agencies -- particularly municipalities.

 

 

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On 6/16/2020 at 11:51 PM, 2Valen said:

You have not been to ILLINOIS, and yes several cities will not allow MD at parks or on city property.

I have already encountered that problem at a nearby city.

Couple of things to say to this 2-valen :   Is that an actual law/rule on the books (that truly says "no md'ing" ?).  Or was this a "no" answer you fetched when asking someone "Can I ?

If it IS true that there is laws/rules on the books, for their parks , that actually says "no md'ing", then I have a sneaking suspicion of how those came to be.   Care to take a guess ?   In a lot of those cases, if/when you are able to trace back to origins, guess what the usual originating kernel is ?   Yup, you  guessed it:  Someone going in and asking "Can I?" questions.   Thus someone in-power must "invent a rule to address the pressing issue."

In the entire state of CA, I can't think of a single city that has any specific rules.   And can  think of only 3 or 4 (in the entire state) that ever dreamed up a "permit".  And even in those locations, you NEVER get "carded".

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On 6/17/2020 at 7:13 AM, DDancer said:

What the others say I'm pretty much in agreement with 🙂  But legality is a fine line.  For example here in NC there are a lot of restrictions and whole counties where detecting is illegal unless its private properties.  Here's  a link I found useful on legalities, this page is for NC but they have other states and localities.  One thing of note is many restrictions rest on the Antiquities Act as the catch all for no detecting.  Generally if I'm quite, clean and pick quite times of the day I can get a little detecting done.  Big thing is if asked to leave, even if you are in the right, do so.  Plenty of places to have a swing.

http://www.mdhtalk.org/cf/city-regulation.cfm?st=NC

D-Dancer, Re.: your link and post :  There is a lot of info. to un-pack and clarify.   For starters, me thinks you're confusing county  level info, to mean "all land within a county".  Or state info to mean "all land within the state", etc.....   But it doesn't work like that.   Instead, an answer coming from the county would only apply to county land (like county parks).  And have nothing to do with state, fed, or city lands.   And same for something that the state says.   That would only apply to state parks, and not other governmental entity forms of land.

Also, those nifty  compendium sites, like in your link, have a BIG "devil in the details".  Any time anyone has ever tried to make a one-stop-shopping compendium  like that, they are always fraught with "gotchas".   In a few cases, sure, they might point you to a specific rule.  Ok.  But if you read closely, a lot of the supposed "no's" you read, are merely someone's having asked "can I ?" in the past.  They get told  "no", and then it makes its way onto these nifty lists.   Yet is no where codified as such.

This psychology/phenomenon was made very clear when an author "R.W. Doc Grim" wrote a book in the mid 1980s (before the internet) called "Treasure Laws of the United States".  He attempted to make a compendium book, where all the states would be listed in alphabetic order, where users could simply turn to any given state, and see what the laws were for their state parks (hence it didn't deal with county or city level  parks).   And guess how the author went about getting his info to put in his book ?  SIMPLE:  He xeroxed off 50 copies of a letter , sent it to  each state capital heads of parks dept, asking : "What are the rules regarding the use of metal detectors in your state parks ?".  And  letting them know he was writing a book.   Then  he merely sat back and waited for 50 replies to fill his mail box.

Genius  idea, right ?  I mean, who better to ask, than the top-dog of each state park's parks after all, eh ?   And when  he got all his reply letters back, he printed them in his book, with their actual letterhead shown, etc....  So that if you were ever accosted by a busy-body, you could just show them right out of the book that it's ok , blah blah .  And conversely, if the answer was "no", then  you'd save yourself embarrassment, right ?   Genius  idea, right ?  

But a strange thing happened :  A lot of the states sent back confusing  replies.  Eg.: "No because of cultural heritage issues" (even though nothing specifically said 'no md'ing' ).  Or No because  of alter and deface verbiage.   Or no because of disturbing the wild-life.  Or no because  of rules that forbid harvest and collect.  Blah blah.  And oddly,  a lot of these answers were coming from states that, quite frankly,  had never been an issue before.  So you had old-timers sitting around scratching their heads saying "since when ?"

See how that works ?  It's the old "No one cared till you asked" routine.   And trust me:  The same phenomenon can be the originating kernals of info found on those nifty  links,  like the one you give.   So sometimes you need to take them with a grain of salt, or read between the lines.

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On 6/17/2020 at 7:47 AM, GB_Amateur said:

.......  I've heard of parks where detecting is allowed but digging isn't!  Others restrict the size & shape of recovery tools, which is a fair compromise, IMO.  I seem to recall a post here a while back saying that it's a state law in Tennessee that metal detecting is forbidden on public properties. ...

GB-amateur,  I got news for you :  ALL parks disallow "digging".  It might use the word "dig."  Or might use alter and deface.  Or destroy or mutilate, etc...  Yet guess what ?  :  MD'ing, as you know, is common place in parks all across the USA.   Do you think all those md'rs are lawless miscreants ?   So my suspicion of how  any such "yes but you can't dig" type rule came to be, was someone in the past that went swatting hornet's nests with "Can I ?" questions.  

As for the Tennessee thing:   That has long since been debunked.   But , as shown by your repeating it, just goes to show how bad news never dies, but good news never gets off the ground.   Here's what happened , and how it spread, and how it was debunked years ago :

a)  Some purist university archie in Tennessee (who hates md'rs) was interviewed or wrote an article or something, and claimed that md'ing was illegal in all of Tennessee

b) Some sincere well-meaning skittish md'rs , from Tennessee, picked up on that news piece, & got all up in arms worried about this.  And went to 1) spread the news on a lot of md'ing forums, to  likewise get all sorts of other  TN md'rs panties in wads as well.   And 2) who all went "seeking clarifications" (after all, you "don't want to get arrested, eh ?).   And 3) forming solidarities to fight this, blah blah.   Which made this info spread like wild-fire.  The more people  chimed in, then the more people  saw it, then  the more forums it showed up on , etc...

c)  BUT GUESS WHAT ?   That originating kernel of supposed info. was flawed IN THE FIRST PLACE.  Here's why :  That  purist archie, had made his comment based on ARPA.  And tennets of the trinomial archie system (eg.: historic monuments that get an archie # assigned to them) .  He just assumed that since ARPA is federal, that it therefore subrogates down to  lower level states, counties, and cities.   BUT THIS ISN'T TRUE.   And same for  the trinomial archie # system  of locations:  THAT ONLY APPLIES TO JUST THOSE SPOTS.  Not the "entire state".   In other  words, the "entire state of TN" is not an "archaeological spot", as this guy would have you believe.  I mean, go figure, he's a purist archie.  So OF COURSE they couch anything they say in the most dire terms.

So the guy was plain wrong.   But here's the rub:  Guess what happens when enough  md'rs "get their panties in a wad" and worry and seek clarification on this ?  Then sure as heck, this "pressing question" keeps appearing on bureaucrat's desks to answer.  And  then guess what ?   See the vicious self-fulfilling circle ?   It's as if we md'rs can be our own worst enemies 😞

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On 6/17/2020 at 7:47 AM, GB_Amateur said:

I wonder if we're seeing the East/West effect native gold detectorists know all too well -- land East of the Rockies is basically private and public properties (meaning parks and forests) tightly restricted. 

I've only hunted the east coast states a single time.   But I have a couple of friends here, who annually fly into the east coast, and get a rental car.  And then proceed to randomly drive around scores of east coast colonial age cities.  Eg. Rhode Island, NY, Vermont, MA, CT, MH, etc.....   And hit any and  all old parks and courthouse lawns , in all the small towns that they come to.  And unless there's a glaring sign that said "no md'ing", they do not hesitate to hit any and all parks they come to.

Oh sure,  they have the 'presence of mind' not to go at high traffic times,  begging for attention.  But  in all their years of doing this,  can recall only a time or two being told "scram" (yeah yeah, that can happen anywhere).

So based on their accounts, I don't think it's any more difficult to hunt east coast parks as it is to  hunt west coast parks.  If I'm wrong, and it's more clamped down there,  then I have a sneaking suspicion of how that came to be.  Care to take a guess ?

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6 hours ago, phd_angel said:

..... I just came across the U.S map of state legislations at mdhtalk.org......

my opinion of compendiums such as that, was spelled out  in my reply to D-dancer.  Sometimes you can take them with a grain of salt, and must read between the lines.   A little knowledge about how they were assembled in the first place, sheds light  on how worried you need to be about some of that info.

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On 6/17/2020 at 12:16 PM, GB_Amateur said:

....   Again, I could be misinterpreting what 'state parks' mean.  I've always used it in reference to parks that the state operates, not parks operated by other government agencies -- particularly municipalities.

You are not mistaken.  But this is a mistake that is made over and over and over again, especially by newbies.  They pick up on a list like that, or the FMDAC list, etc....   And find something dire about their state's park.  And make the mistaken jump to think that means "all parks in their state".  IT DOESN'T.  It only means state parks, not other entity parks.

Also, I have my doubts about some of the info spelled out  about state parks too.   On some of them, that appear to be a "no", if you delve deeper , you see no such *specific* rule that truly says such a thing.  Instead it might point to  cultural heritage, for example.  Ok fine, you're  only looking for new coins and/or  the ring your  wife lost last week.  RIGHT  ?  Or nuggets or meteors,  etc...  Or it might point to harvest/collect or alter/deface.  Which tells you what ?  That someone went  swatting hornet's nests years ago and got this 'pressing answer'.

In CA, for example,  some of the listings I've read do sound dire.  Yet , for example,  you can hunt state beaches here (which are administered by the EXACT SAME STATE PARK'S Dept.) till  you're blue in the face.   Moral of the story  ? :  We leave "good enough alone".  And I  hope to h*ll that no one ever goes "seeking clarification".

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