Equinox Software Update 3.0...

[Raphis]

3 hours ago, mn90403 said:

Has anyone commented about cell phones and the need for the 4 kHz frequency?  Perhaps that is THE reason to get something other than 5 kHz?

There are numerous sources of EMI. My cellphone is attached around my waist while I detect, and I have not noticed any erratic issues with my machine, even though I have read that noise can be generated by cellphones in short bursts that can affect detectors....cell phone frequencies are in the Megahertz bandwidth, while detectors function in the kilohertz bandwidth...so I would think that cellphone communications wouldn’t greatly affect metal detectors to a degree that other sources of emi can.

Go and read the article below I found about EMI and metal detectors.

http://www.metaldetectingintheusa.com/files/explanation-of-emi.pdf

[Chase Goldman]

4 hours ago, mn90403 said:

Has anyone commented about cell phones and the need for the 4 kHz frequency?  Perhaps that is THE reason to get something other than 5 kHz?

 

56 minutes ago, Raphis said:

There are numerous sources of EMI. My cellphone is attached around my waist while I detect, and I have not noticed any erratic issues with my machine, even though I have read that noise can be generated by cellphones in short bursts that can affect detectors....cell phone frequencies are in the Megahertz bandwidth, while detectors function in the kilohertz bandwidth...so I would think that cellphone communications wouldn’t greatly affect metal detectors to a degree that other sources of emi can.

Go and read the article below I found about EMI and metal detectors.

http://www.metaldetectingintheusa.com/files/explanation-of-emi.pdf

Cell phones typically interfere with the control module electronics which is largely near field interference and independent of the operating frequency of the detector coil.  But the coil can act as a resonant receive antenna for longer field interference such as from power lines and depending on the operating frequency you use can be more or less pronounced, if present.   Having a frequency that is not a multiple of 5 khz like all the other SF's on Equinox, just gives an additional mitigation against interference from harmonic multiples of 50 and 60 hz power lines.

To answer Mitchel's question more directly, it is unlikely that ML selected 4 khz to reduce EMI from cell phones but not because of the difference in operating frequency, it is because of the difference in field strength and the part of the detector that phones interfere with (the control electronics and microprocessor, which ARE both operating in the MHz to GHz range of the phones).  4 khz just happens to be less likely to line up as a harmonic of 50 or 60 khz electrical systems vs. 5 khz and gives you a fighting chance of finding a quiet, "low" frequency channel for deep silver slaying.

Perhaps making Raphis love his new detecting friend, the Equinox, even more!

BTW - thanks for providing the link to the EMI article.  Good summary.

[Raphis]

2 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

4 khz just happens to be less likely to line up as a harmonic of 50 or 60 hz electrical systems vs. 5 khz and gives you a fighting chance of finding a quiet, "low" frequency channel for silver slaying.

BTW - thanks for providing the link to the EMI article.  Good summary.

Chase, isn’t 4 Khz a harmonic frequency of a 50 Hz powerline?  5 KHz doesn’t line up very well with 60 Hz power lines either..

Even if I’m operating my machine around 60 Hz electrical, 4 KHz is no more a harmonic frequency of 60 Hz than 5 KHz is...hmmm

Also, the noise channels increase/decrease operating frequency a little over 100 Hz with each setting...wouldn’t that ensure harmonic frequencies would be less problematic?

[Chase Goldman]

Actually, neither 4 khz nor 5 khz are true whole number harmonics of 60 hz (but they are true harmonics of 50 hz) so that was probably inaccurate on my part.  The point is something that interferes with 5 khz is also likely to interfere (but to a lesser extent) with 10 khz but is unlikely going to significantly interfere with 4 khz.  Similarly, something interfering with 4 khz is probably not going to interfere as much with 5 khz.  So it gives you that fighting chance to find a clean low operating frequency channel including whatever the noise cancel algorithm does for you.   The lower operating frequencies are closer to the 60hz (or 50 hz) power line frequency and since the harmonic amplitude drops off the further you are away from the base frequency, these lower operating frequencies are probably more susceptible to power line noise.  But as was written in the paper you linked to, there are a myriad of other sources of far field EMI that can affect the detectors, so the key is being able to "shift" from the interfered frequency (or its harmonics) and that is essentially what 4 khz now brings to the table for Equinox (and perhaps some additional secret sauce signal processing compared to the "fives" single frequency settings).

[midalake]

14 hours ago, Raphis said:

There are numerous sources of EMI. My cellphone is attached around my waist while I detect, and I have not noticed any erratic issues with my machine, even though I have read that noise can be generated by cellphones in short bursts that can affect detectors..

 Well a little incite on my EMI experience. I did not know what EMI was until I got an Equinox. 

I can not tell you how many cell phones I have heard while working the beach. I swear everyone has one. Sometimes I can hear the pulses 40-50 feet away. 

Tom has just spoke recently about "silent EMI" I do believe my location has this effect as well.  My machine seems to run great, however I can hear pulses on recovery of a target. [Esp in All Metal]  In this particular area of the beach  my recovery rate, target ID and and depth all seem be be affected. 
I will be very interested to get back to this beach with the new update!

Not sure keeping a cell phone on while you are hunting is a good idea. 

Dave

 

[Knomad]

I can tell you for certain that in prospecting modes 1 and 2 ( the most sensitive of all the modes) that you will get bursts of strong interference from cell phones, it seems to be picked up by the control box as much if not more than the coil, and if I forget to turn off my phone and it gets near the box it can be startling when listening to a faint threshold.

Note, even if you have notices etc turned off on your phone the phone still Checks Into the system now and then, and it's that transmitting burst of EMI that seems the worst.

I have yet to update to 3.0 but will, just for those rare times when Multi is too noisy, would be nice to be able to eliminate or switch what frequencies are used in Multi, I suspect it is often only one causing the noise and hate to lose the advantage of Multi just because of one frequency interfering.

[GhostLands]

On 7/25/2020 at 9:04 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

Well, now if you hit that frequency button it's just one more of way too many pushes to get back to where you were. I wish it went both directions. It’s so simple. Press the frequency button, then push plus or minus. Time for another update! 

Or, use the User Button to go back to a custom mode running the same settings with a different frequency. Something like Todepole & Ghost programs on the CTX3030. This, on a area where hoards were found! (Silver coinage).

Recently the Joan Allen team found one! On the third day, they went back with the Nox new update and Gordon Heritage went with his GPX 5000 and a Coiltek 14" Mono Elite Coil! Both units worked like a charm!

On the first day when they started to find those coins scattered, I was somewhere deep in the forest hunting my Gpx 5000 on a old site where I found a scattered hoard from the 14th century, I also spared some minutes to go live on Facebook to simulate a Medieval hoard with couple of stacked  small silver hammereds! Impressive! Did notice the difference! Oh and I didn't have so much EMI on 4khz  comparing with the 5khz and Multi! (I have a Samsung galaxy s9 plus, generally I have to put the flight mode on, and if I go live, its the madness! I assume its the Ghz?

 

Cheers

[steveg]

On 7/28/2020 at 11:45 PM, Raphis said:

You found me already ☺️

I just joined this forum after many years of being on a bunch of forums and posting my finds.

Tell Mr. Tom Tanner when you chat with him next that I’m on this forum now and I just purchased a Nox 800 a few weeks ago, and I am having a blast with this machine!!  I’ve already found 40 silver so far with my new Nox (at sites that I’ve hunted countless times in the past years with my Explorer SE)...Tell Tom I feel the Nox is a superior machine to my Explorer SE (He’ll probably cringe at that statement, but he’ll believe me...). Don’t get me wrong...I have found a mountain of silver, wheats, Injuns, etc with my Explorer SE pro....but I finally bit the bullet (after 13 years), and picked up a Nox!  I’m so satisfied with this machine!  It’s weighs nothing compared to my SE w/inline probe..I never thought I would say this, but the Nox is superior in depth at trashy sites (especially at sites with nasty EMI), and can locate deep targets co-located with iron better than my SE...I also enjoy hunting in all-metal now(couldn’t do that in conductive mode on my Explorer), no threshold, with Iron target volume set low.  I thought I would miss my Sunray In-line probe, but I don’t miss it one bit!

I won’t be posting any finds though...I was posting finds across 4 different forums for many years....I much prefer these types of discussions boards with a good mix of highly competent/knowledgeable treasure hunters, along with a good mix of hunters with a willingness to learn more and become better TH’ers!!

HH,

Dan (aka Raphis/CAPTNSE)

 

Dan --

Wow!  You have no idea that forum exchanges that Tom_in_CA and I have had (mainly over at Dankowski's forum)!  I was relatively experienced (about 8 years) Explorer SE Pro user, who switched to a CTX when my last SE Pro died, and then purchased an Equinox right when they were released.  My plan was -- after learning the EQX thoroughly -- to use the EQX as a quality backup to my CTX.  But, in the process of committing the time to learning the EQX, it -- though I didn't expect it to -- proved itself to me to the degree that it has become my go-to machine.  And not JUST because it does a bit better in iron/trash, but because in my dirt, it is JUST AS DEEP (if not a tad deeper) than FBS, and thus allows me to "deep silver hunt" just as effectively as FBS does.  But, Tom -- ever the skeptic that he is -- REFUSES to take me at my word, no matter how hard I tried to support and justify my position.  The only way he says he'll ever believe me, or anyone else, and even CONSIDER setting down his EX II, is if I "spank him" (his words) in a "detecting duel!"  He REALLY wants that "duel" to occur; I'd love to oblige him, but I live in Oklahoma, so not real practical.  But -- NOW -- since you have, and understand, your Equinox, maybe YOU are the guy to accept his challenge?!  

Steve

[Tom_in_CA]

On 7/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, Raphis said:

You found me already ☺️

I just joined this forum after many years of being on a bunch of forums and posting my finds.

Tell Mr. Tom Tanner when you chat with him next that I’m on this forum now and I just purchased a Nox 800 a few weeks ago, and I am having a blast with this machine!!  I’ve already found 40 silver so far with my new Nox (at sites that I’ve hunted countless times in the past years with my Explorer SE)...Tell Tom I feel the Nox is a superior machine to my Explorer SE (He’ll probably cringe at that statement, but he’ll believe me...). Don’t get me wrong...I have found a mountain of silver, wheats, Injuns, etc with my Explorer SE pro....but I finally bit the bullet (after 13 years), and picked up a Nox!  I’m so satisfied with this machine!  It’s weighs nothing compared to my SE w/inline probe..I never thought I would say this, but the Nox is superior in depth at trashy sites (especially at sites with nasty EMI), and can locate deep targets co-located with iron better than my SE...I also enjoy hunting in all-metal now(couldn’t do that in conductive mode on my Explorer), no threshold, with Iron target volume set low.  I thought I would miss my Sunray In-line probe, but I don’t miss it one bit!

I won’t be posting any finds though...I was posting finds across 4 different forums for many years....I much prefer these types of discussions boards with a good mix of highly competent/knowledgeable treasure hunters, along with a good mix of hunters with a willingness to learn more and become better TH’ers!!

HH,

Dan (aka Raphis/CAPTNSE)

Dan, It's good to see you posting on an md'ing forum !   Welcome .   Your skill in junky park turf is legendary in CA !

As for the discussion of Nox vs Explorers :  I know you had the SE, in the incarnation lineup of Explorers.  And not sure if you're aware or not, but the SE suffered some criticism of being lesser depth than the other explorers  in the evolution lineup.  This was because when it evolved to the SE , one of the things Minelab attempted, was to speed up the processing, as you know.  So as to be better in trash.  A noble effort.  HOWEVER, it had the subtle effect of lesser depth.    Or at least TID at depth.

Here's an example :  I once bought an SE JUST TO GET THE INLINE PROBE off of it.   And I decided to try out the SE on the wet salt beach, after we'd had some erosion.   I wandered around for awhile and  heard a few nails, but passed them.    Eventually I finally got a waffling signal that took some "persuasion" to determine that it might be conductive.   I dug a dime that .... IMHO  *should* have been a bolder signal, at the depth I'd just dug it at.  So on a hunch I doubled back to several "nails" that I'd passed.   Lo & behold THEY  TOO were deep coins.   Hmmm.    It was taking a lot of "persuasion" to make them hint at conductive.  Otherwise, they were in the nail-grunt zone of audio.

I posted my observations, and several people concurred that the SE does, in fact, get this criticism .  So whereas the II will tend to get the TID on the first swing over the target, yet the SE requires more persuasion.   Hence  in effect, less depth.   

So when  you say your Nox is beating the SE  in turf for you, I wouldn't dispute this outcome.   That's because I question the SE in the first place.  HOWEVER :  I'd love to see you go head to head with a proficient turf Exp II user.  

If you've got a weekend to come up this direction , there's a certain  turf zone in SF where  I've spanked a Nox user @ 2x to 1x on  oldies.   And trust me, it's NOT just chalked up to "experience" (that I have more  years than him, or he's newer on his Nox, etc....).  Because we are flagging signals back and forth.   And he has all the time in the world to play with a myriad of Nox settings.  And when it's  all  said and done, he has to admit he wouldn't have heard them.   Trust me:  He's studied all the forums  for tips, etc...

So I could go with "experience"  causing the disparity, if all we did was count end of the day oldies.  But when  it comes to FLAGGING, then .... No  amount  of added "experience" is going to make a signal appear, that's simply not there no matter what settings you use.

It's gotten to the point where he's attributing it to EMI and electrical/radio/cell interference.   Because it seems to get worse  for  him when  the "city wakes up after 7am".   So we've tried starting at 4 or 5 am.  And while it's a little better, he's still getting spanked .   We fully intend to  continue the experimentation, now that he's had more time on his machine.   Would  love to have you along.   There's a couch you can crash on, and the beer's on me .   You game ?   Any time we visit this zone  we never lack for back to back deepie wheatie/silver type signals.   Some very deep and difficult, but still never lack getting a dozen or more wheaties, 2 or 3 or 4 silvers, etc...

Lastly :  When it comes to relicky ghost-townsy type hunting, then yes, the Nox is spanking me.   But I'm the first to admit that the Exp II is not a good see-through/averaging/separating machine.    It's great on turf (as you know) , but only so-so in iron-infested messes.   Bring Jamflicker with you.  I got 2 couches, haha.

 

[steveg]

Tom -- glad to see you here, as well!  I sure hope Raphis and you find a time to get together.  If you do, make sure you FILM this duel; it should become a classic, like the shoot-out at the OK Corral...  😉

Steve