Ace Apex Production Announcement

[jmaryt]

On 8/17/2020 at 5:15 PM, phrunt said:

And that sums up why Garrett made it an Ace and not an AT replacement.  I understand the excitement, it's a big step for Garrett but I don't expect as much as some others do, and if it can match or come close a Vanquish when in MF I'd say they've done very well and when they do come out with their flagship using the tech it will be interesting.   Maybe judging by what Jeff said about it being made in USA people may have their blinkers on to the reality of it all.  It's a step, and a step they have to do to stay in the game, but let's wait and see before getting too excited.  What I love about this is people that swing high end machines are getting excited about entry level machines, it shows manufacturers are getting their act together finally.

as you mentioned and i agree,i am super curious about "how" the (s.m.f.)
performs in trashed parks and other "cooked" places. THIS is what's going to 
"make or break" this detector, in my view! 

(h.h.!)
j.t.

 

[jmaryt]

22 hours ago, phrunt said:

How'd that go for Whites? 🙂

Just being cheeky!

 

22 hours ago, phrunt said:

How'd that go for Whites? 🙂

Just being cheeky!

that's why whitey is gone! .over priced detectors
and they are still over priced because as far as i can tell,
nobody is discounting remaining stock! 

(h.h.!)
j.t.

 

[Steve Herschbach]

11 hours ago, jmaryt said:

steve if what you say turns out to be true, then all bets are off,just go with any single frequency
detector, why even bother with (s.m.f.) if there is really no advantage again, i am NOT   arguing with you,
as you make a solid point, and what you state "could be true"..i find that possibility kinda disturbing
in that, again!..what's the point in buying it in the first place,IF that turns out to be accurate! 

(h.h.!)
j.t.

Multi has a clear advantage on a saltwater beach. Typically more solid target id. That could be about it for this version. Just because you want a $424 detector to have cutting edge flagship performance that makes hunted out parks come alive does not mean it will happen. There are high performing single frequency and lower performing single frequency, at higher and lower prices. Same thing is going to happen now with multifrequency. Higher price, higher performing models, and lower price, lower performing models. Which do you want to bet this is?

[GB_Amateur]

1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Multi has a clear advantage on a saltwater beach. Typically more solid target id. That could be about it for this version.

I would like someone to comment on the depth test at 27:54 in the Aussie video which Jeff linked.  As I mentioned in that thread, as with most detectors we only get to see ground phase, not mineralization.  So we don't really know how bad the soil's ferrous content is.  But even if moderate this looks pretty good.  Aussie 95% silver threepence is about same as our USA silver dime, I think.  In my soil that depth performance on a silver dime would be excellent for the Equinox and better (at least in terms of still giving a decent non-ferrous ID) than any of my single frequencies.

We've heard people speculate that this coil hinders finding deeper coins.  I'll take an 11 inch deep silver dime anyday.  He does mention that freshly buried isn't really comparable to long-ago buried coins, but the ground mineralization is still there in his test.

 

[Steve Herschbach]

I was not trying to imply the machine has no depth. An Ace 400 would surprise most people in that regard.

[GB_Amateur]

34 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I was not trying to imply the machine has no depth. An Ace 400 would surprise most people in that regard.

Nor was I interpreting your post to mean specifically that.  But I now elaborate.  When you got your Equinox (don't know if it was your test version or a production version) you showed coin finds (including several silver coins) from a local Reno Park.  (This is all from memory so maybe I have some facts twisted.)  You said the Equinox was successful there because Multi-IQ could punch deeper than previous detectors, at least without losing ability to discriminate ferrous and non-ferrous.  You also emphasized (maybe not on that post, but in many others) that your mineralization is much worse than typical USA soils, particularly Florida where we've heard of crazy(?) depths achieved by Tom Dankowski, for example.  And I seem to recall the depths of the coins you were pulling out with the Eqx were in the 5-6 inch range.

So, if I'm even close to right, 5-6" was difficult for previous detectors that hit this park and the Equinox broke into new territory.

I think the wish/hope/thought that the Apex would outperform the Equinox, or even match it performancewise has gone out the window (well, maybe a few holdouts).  However, compared to single frequency detectors or even the Fisher CZn (multifrequency) family and the White's DFX, does that test of the Apex in the video that I pointed to give indication that the performance of the Apex is more than just "better in the salt, equal in other respects to single frequency"?

Apologies if I put words in your mouth that weren't there.

[Steve Herschbach]

2 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

So, if I'm even close to right, 5-6" was difficult for previous detectors that hit this park and the Equinox broke into new territory.

As tested against many other detectors, the Equinox did add just that little bit extra that has me squeaking silver where others miss. I guess the businessman in me simply discounts the idea that Garrett would come up with something that matches Minelabs 20 year head start, and then quietly stick it in their low end range. It makes more sense to me that the Apex AT would not only be waterproof, but have that little extra punch. Garrett has stated there is no rush on coming out with the next Multi-Flex model, and I suspect that time will be well spent taking what is learned with Apex to create the higher price AT version. I’m simply betting that with the Apex Garrett is leaving a little something on the table for later and being careful not to completely gut their AT sales.

[GB_Amateur]

5 hours ago, phrunt said:

Although my soils likely don't compare to that location I could get that coin at that depth with my Vanquish 540 with a pretty solid ID, for example an ID between 20 and 23 if the coin was a 21.

Simon, you need to find some mineralized soil.  😁  As coins get deep my Equinox has a wider range of TID's than a difference of 3, and that's after I've pinpointed.  My soil is moderate.  As far as what the Apex was showing, yes, I think it depends on the mineralization.  We just don't know as he didn't tell us.  I'd be digging that target signal all day long and twice on Sunday if my Eqx showed similar.

And before anyone gets testy, I'm not saying it performs as well as the Equinox!

We've been speculating for what, 4 months?  All we have to go by are the homer videos and the manual.  I don't think we're going to figure out anything more until they are released and we see more reports or, better yet, get one in our hands.  I do hope that teaser video of the five contest winners' loaded up boxes really means they are finished tweeking and going to full production.

 

[Steve Herschbach]

12 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

I don't think we're going to figure out anything more until they are released and we see more reports or, better yet, get one in our hands.  I do hope that teaser video of the five contest winners' loaded up boxes really means they are finished tweeking and going to full production.

They have been released and are shipping to dealers and customers as we type. I’m pretty sure there is a thread about that................ right here! 

[Chase Goldman]

6 hours ago, phrunt said:

Not trying to be the party pooper but that soil he was in I am betting isn't super hot, not all of Australia is covered in hot soil, MANY areas are not, especially coastal areas are more loamy brown soils.

The target ID's were shocking on his buried threepence, this is where I am betting the Vanquish is going to destroy the Apex, ID accuracy.  Although my soils likely don't compare to that location I could get that coin at that depth with my Vanquish 540 with a pretty solid ID, for example an ID between 20 and 23 if the coin was a 21.  His ID's were all over the place, if that's how deep coins performed I'd probably never find one using an Apex as I'd have to dig all the junk too.

The thing I like most about Multi-IQ is ID stability at depth.   This is the reports I'll be waiting to read by real users.

One of the things that gives the Equinox/Vanquish Multi IQ it's stability is 50 segment target ID.  Multi tends to increase target ID accuracy at depth but not necessarily stability.  What I mean by that if Vanquish was 100 segments, it might be as jumpy as what you are seeing with the Apex.  MF enables you to at least get a usable TID at depth (if not stable) especially in mineralized soil.  Otherwise, Single Frequency under the same conditions might give you an inaccurate (e.g. upaveraged or downaveraged) target ID but some greater depth and perhaps stability/repeatablity.  You can see this with the newly added 4 khz mode on the Equinox, it punches deeper, gives a solid stable TID but it is usually up averaged vs. MF for the same target.  In mineralized ground I can get deeper usable target ID's with Equinox under clean conditions vs. Deus.  However, Deus will punch deeper overall in mineralized soil and give me a deeper raw target signal, the problem is, that deep target signal may ring up as ferrous even with a non-ferrous target.  It's all a matter of tradeoffs and specific situations. 

In my experience (and I am not saying this is a universal truth) - Equinox in MF can give an accurate TID deeper than the Deus in mineralized soils but the raw depth of Equinox drops off faster than Deus (kind of makes sense if you think of MF being slightly less power efficient than single frequency) such that I can illuminate a target with the Deus deeper, I just can't get a reliable target ID, but I do know a target is there whereas it is silence with the Equinox.  If I switch Equinox over to SF then I can illuminate that target but the ID is unreliable (just like the Deus).  In thick iron, though, the Deus will still outperform the Equinox in depth and separation even if the Equinox is in SF, and definitely will outperform it in iron when the Equinox is in MF.  MF is not the panacea for all detecting ills, bottom line.  Again, this is just my experience in some nasty soil and I will say, as always, your mileage may vary.