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Testing The Garrett Apex / False Signals - Issue Solved


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17 hours ago, kac said:

Jumpy numbers might be from EMI and not necessarily the ground. Here we have more cell towers being put up and many houses have wifi boosters as well as wifi hot spots. Pretty sure it effects many machines and more so with ones that have larger coils. Finding that to be the case with my small arsenal.

Jumpy numbers can definitely be caused by EMI. However, the detector experiencing EMI usually will also have some random numbers and faint tones when it is not over a target. The Apex I was using was running very quietly. Like I said, I liked everything about it except for it not locking on relatively easy targets securely. I can only compare this to my AT Gold. The AT Gold can be spitty and chatter since it is hitting a lot of small targets due to its operating frequency and high gain. When it gets over an easy target it will lock onto it no problem. There are off course targets that register right on a tone break boundary so two different tones can occur. The Apex I was using had responses that were crossing over two tone breaks on simple targets both with tones and numbers.

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When you are pushing the edge, that’s the trade you make, and probably where Equinox gets its particular edge. It’s hard to get the best performance while also being stable. The Apex is priced such th

Good news, I have eventually received my Apex back from the European Garrett support ... 🙂 My seller ( Bruno at Lutece detection in Paris ) told me that the pb ( false signals etc see above ) came f

Funny how different people like different things. I really like the rod on the Apex, though Garrett could upgrade the twist locks. Only brand I’ve seen where those have to be assembled on arrival. But

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If you look at it this way, as the signal is interupted the machine cannot establish or lock in on the target as well as it should so you may get spikes and drops. One thing I noticed is moving the coil slower will help but this doesn't solve the problem. You may not always have jumping numbers over a target depending on the machine and how much emi is effecting it

Picture it this way. If mapped out a sine wave based on 60 hz (usa power grid) then add spikes and drops with other emi such as wifi and cell towers. Next try to get a frequency that fits or interleaves with that without spiking and dropping more.

The AT Pro and AT Gold have descent emi protection and good filtering allowing them to lock on most of the time but the APEX is multi frequency so more prone to emi across one or more of its frequencies

I never really noticed how much EMI is an issue until I hit some tough areas with my MK and though I can skim by and not really notice anything with 3 tone mode (similar to most machines and has highest filtering) when I try to use the high gain 2 tone, 4 tone or deep I would run into issues that varied time to time in same areas where the machine might skip on a target then spike on back pass. The other issue is I would lose the range on the vco and targets would sound like they are at similar depth. Sometimes in that same area the vco would work perfect and I could not only tell the size of a target but the depth as well as I had the nuances that were lost due to emi.

Ground conditions won't cause irradic behavior of numbers because the ground is static and if that is the case it will only be seen when the coil is in motion. Sometimes the EMI is faint enough that you will not see any numbers bounce when the machine is idle, sometimes you will.

This is the first year I really started to hunt in all metal mode as anyone knows the am mode on the Tejon doesn't have the recovery speed to make it really effective in moderate and high target areas. I noticed how some frequencies would have more of a flutter than others and when I had a flutter I noticed the numbers jumping and the machine would have difficulty locking on targets. This became a problem because there were areas I wanted to use a specific frequency for the ground conditions and not have to switch due to emi ie: 5khz brackish water/salt water, 14khz relic, 19khz coin shooting.

With the emi increasing here I descided to try something different and went for a high frequency machine and with something that would be the least likely to react with emi so I looked at the Whites 48khz and the Makro 56khz and with Whites tossing in the towel at the time I snagged the Gold Racer. Immediately I was able to have an absolutely smooth threshold and noticed how easy the numbers locked on. Of course as Jeff noted with his AT Gold it would get jittery due to the high sensitivity to targets which is easy to trim out with nudging the sensitivity down a bit.

I am not suggesting everyone should run out and buy a prospecting machine to go coin shootingn even though they are fun but be aware that unseen outside forces can radically effect how a machine performs. This doesn't make the machine bad but the manufacturers need to step up their game to combat this problem.

I do give credit to ML for Nox having better filtering than most machines in many of these conditions.

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I think in the first place it is necessary to find out whether there is a problem in the detector, or in the coil ... so it would be worthwhile to try the second coil on Apex first ...
And then we can be a little wiser ....

In a moment, coils of other sizes are also on offer ...

coil connector on the electronic board ..if it is well fastened should not be a problem..otherwise it is possible that it can transmit microvibration interference..but I believe it is not so ..

As for Apex and the cancellation of the multifrequency ... so is the shift of the channel of the multifrequency ... and Apex should cancel it well enough .... especially because it uses a relatively compact coil 6x11 "..

 

Apex in multifrekvenci..

IMG_20201102_205321.jpg

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19 minutes ago, EL NINO77 said:

I think in the first place it is necessary to find out whether there is a problem in the detector, or in the coil ... so it would be worthwhile to try the second coil on Apex first ...
And then we can be a little wiser ....

In a moment, coils of other sizes are also on offer ...

coil connector on the electronic board ..if it is well fastened should not be a problem..otherwise it is possible that it can transmit microvibration interference..but I believe it is not so ..

As for Apex and the cancellation of the multifrequency ... so is the shift of the channel of the multifrequency ... and Apex should cancel it well enough .... especially because it uses a relatively compact coil 6x11 "..

....

Yes you are right El Nino the pb is not simple and trying an other coil is a good idea  , however I dont want to spend more money ( and time ) on this issue . I hope we will have news on this via UtahRich who has contacted the Garretts support. Lets see what they say ...

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1 hour ago, UtahRich said:

My APEX heads back Thursday morning for Garrett to have a look. 

Good to hear, and keep me posted.  I was almost ready to text you (it's 3:10 AM) and discuss the Apex a bit more.  Headed out with mine again when the sun is up and it warms a bit.   Last chance with good weather at the graded vacant lot that produced Wheat-backs yesterday.  There just has to be silver, somewhere.  Keep m/us informed, and I have already discussed the issue.  A trip to Texas is good now that wintry weather is setting in over your way.

Monte

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18 hours ago, EL NINO77 said:

Apex in multifrekvenci..

Where have you been hiding this oscilloscope image, EL NINO?  :biggrin:  How about interpreting it for us.  I roughly think I can pick out ~5 kHz and ~22.5 kHz peaks in the lower (Fourier Transform) window.  Also looks like higher freq's (but maybe just harmonics)?  I mean that one Garrett interview derided the use of higher frequencies in multi-frequency detectors....  What did that engineer call it, 'fluff'?  Surely they aren't using those in their received-wave interpretation logic.  :laugh:

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Since this basic scan of the MF Apex multifrequency was done by one colleague ... so far we can say with certainty ... that the Apex in the multifrequency works on at least two frequencies 5.5khz and 22 khz ...

  After a more documentary correction of the MF measurement, we will know more ...

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It looks like I'm late to the Apex Evaluation Party.  Sorry, but I've tied myself up with a multi-model evaluation I set out to do with 10 brand new detectors I had bought.  At least 9 of them and the other I did some trading to get a new unit.  I'll try to keep it 'on-topic' here since this is a Garrett Forum, but I came away from the evaluations quit pleased with the Apex.  I bought my first Apex as one of the first batches to be shipped from the factory and it has been working quit well.   I haven't had the opportunity to get it out to a ghost town yet, but that's partly because I have been holding off for a smaller-s-size coil to tackle the more iron debris choked areas.  Not to mention it has been overgrown with a lot of dense weeds since about June.

My initial plan was to fit the Apex in as one of my 'Daily-Use Team' detectors that I keep in the vehicle to travel with me should I chance upon a detecting opportunity.    Therefore, most of my detecting with the Apex has been limited to grassy parks, school and sports field sites, and all have been well-hunted over the years.    To get to know it as I was learning it after it arrived, i compared it with two of my other ride-alongs, a Vanquish 540 w/5X8 DD and Simplex + w/5X9½ DD..  I know those two well so that made it easier to work with the Apex.

The only thing I initially wished it had was a slightly smaller-size coil in the 5X8 to 5X9½ size.  There have been too many littered places, mainly modern trash, where the 6X11 Viper was just a wee-bit too long and the influence of the other nearby targets made the audio and visual responses a little jumpier than I wished.  But let me touch on that briefly:

We learned decades ago, in the earlier days of Discrimination and detectors with Double-D coils, that DD's have more difficulty than Concentric coils when it came to accurate Discrimination, and then when visual Target ID arrived on the scene, the DD's were typically a bit jumpier than a Concentric coil if both were worked on the same detector.  Have manufacturers addressed this and improved on TID in more recent years?  Yes, but there certainly there can be some trade-offs.  I have handled some top-end models that had/have very jumpy VDI read-outs, but they are a really good detector IF a smaller-size coil is mounted.  I've tried some other competitor's models that were/are quite impressive with a Concentric coil, but a comparable-size Dd works but has short-comings in some iron nails and other challenges.  Sam detector, different behavior.

Therefore, even when announced I figured the Apex might be a little more troubled because it is using a DD coil, and in addition it's a longer tip-to-tail size.  It's done pretty well for me in the open plowed fields and such where I've taken it, but suffers in the very trashy places.  With their announcement of the Ripper and Raider coils, it should help us all out, especially folks like me who hang out in more littered environments and the 5X8 DD Ripper is likely to become a main-use coil that will stay mounted to one of my two Apex devices.

Now, one more hunt update from today.  I got the permission to work a double lot that was purchased and they went in last week and bladed a lot of it around. Weeds are now 98% gone.  I hunted this after a house was demolished a couple of years ago and it was wheat-back Cent haven!  Now I have access to a lot more open ground were another house used to be until about ten years ago.  Yesterday I nabbed 1 Memorial Cent and 1 Clad Dime, and a few Wheat-back Cents.  Today ... NO memorials, NO Clad, and if I counted the coins right, 28 Wheat-back Cents .... but NO Silver!

My Apx & Viper Coil will be attacking it again as soon as I can tomorrow.  There is a lot of trash in the mix from th two old houses, other structures and  whatever litter was tossed there this past decade.  Fortunately, I can 'toe-scuff' most of the coins out of the now loosened and softer dirt that's been moved around, and coins were found from about 2" to the deeper ones at 4" to maybe 5" at a stretch.

I'm using my 'Custom' Disc. set-up that accepts everything fro'20' on up because I like to hear most ferrous debris that's present.  Volume-8, Iron Volume-2, Sensitivity-8.  Mainly using 'MF' when I start out but checking out both '15' Hz and '20' kHz when I am over near where there is more discarded iron, bottle caps, etc.

I'll save some the question of asking if the Apex is perfect.  No, it isn't,  and in over 55 years running these devices I haven't ever had a 'perfect' detector.  What I will say is that I am very satisfied I made a good choice.  I like the very comfortable light=weight, balance and feel for this old phat who's falling apart.  It's working well, offers ample adjustment features fr my needs, or those I feel most people might have, and it makes an excellent 'fit' in my detector outfit to complement other favorites I use.

And best of all, I have a lot of 'fun' getting out with the Apex, and, for me, that's a main ingredient that has keep me active for all these decades .... having 'fun.'  Now, tomorrow I'll head out for more 'fun' but really hope I can chance upon some silver coins.  They have to be out there somewhere.

Monte

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    • By kac
      Here is the settings I use on the Apex in high trash areas. I keep iron audio set to 1-2 and note the first notch is accepted. This helps quite a bit on bottle caps.
      Targets in the nickel range and gold range if you come across square tabs their numbers are usually bit jumpier. Don't be affaid to drop the sensitivity down more if needed.
      For areas with lots of rusty sheet metal pieces, old tinned cans it is best  to use zero mode as disc modes will trim out good targets. This is the same on the AT series machines.

    • By kac
      Shipped my Orx back and settled on the Apex with viper coil and ws-3 headphones. Did the update and did a quickie depth test at 2 clicks down from max due to a bunch of emi where I test. Overall depth is similar to the Orx and the Tejon with a 8x9 concentric.
      Hit a park for about an hour to give it a try and the audio reminds me of something halfway between the AT Pro and the Ace series. Very abrubt clear signals. Going to take me a while to get used to it as I am so used to vco tone hunting. Machine would false a bit from the ground (phase in the low 90's) so 2 clicks down fixed that. Hunted mostly in zero mode with iron audio on and only picked up 2 bottle caps, rest of the iron I could hear clearly which is a huge difference from the Orx.
      ID's were very stable on targets, maybe a shift of 1-2 but would focus well when short sweeps over the target was used. Junk like aluminum would have jumpier numbers.
      Now if Garret makes a nice carbon lower and mid shaft the machine will feel much lighter. Has that beefy s shaft they use on the other machines.
      Last thing, MS-3's are nice but wouldn't mind if they came out with a light pair of wireless headphones. MS-3's will be on the hot side this summer.
      Didn't bother posting my handful of clad, think you guys seen enough of that already 🙂
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    • By palzynski
      I went today to one of my favourite testing areas , a very old site in a forest , low mineralized soil but infested with thousands of nails.
      It is my first outing there with the Apex . I decided to use the Ripper (5X8)coil instead of the Viper ( 6X11 ) because of its smaller size which means better separation , and also because it is lighter than the Viper ( 330g instead of 400g ).
      Up to now I had only done a few short outings with the Apex in less difficult areas , so I have some experience
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      here. The Ripper coil has the perfect size for hunting (very) small roman coins . It is also very easy
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      The MS3 wireless headphones are excellent and very reliable , it is a pleasure to use them.
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      GARRETT APEX + RIPPER COIL  --   PLUS AND CONS :
      THE PROS :
       . excellent on iron trashed areas 
       . very good audio / excellent iron filtering
       . sensitive to tiny targets as well as bigger ones ( multifrequency )
       . fast and reactive/accurate on targets 
       . a light detector , weighting only 2.4lbs (1,1kg ) with the Ripper coil
       . the thin control box
       . the lithium/ion battery
       . easy to use even by beginners
       . the excellent MS3 wireless headphones
       
      THE CONS :
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       . the rod outdated compared to other brands
       . the coil cable too short for tall persons ( above 6 feet/ 1,85m )
       . no dedicated backlight button 
       . the running freq info ( 5k,10k ... , MF..)  NOT displayed on the main detection screen
       
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      2) A bigger one  ... :

       
      3) Total 6 coins :

       
      4) Back home , after cleaning , a nice roman coin : Constantinus , AD 360 , 1660 years old !  :
      legend : CONSTANTINUS PF AUG

       
      reverse legend : GLORIA EXERCITUS

       
      5) The Viper 6X11  and the Ripper 5X8 :

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