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New Simplex Or Used F75?


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9 hours ago, phrunt said:

And detectors like the T2/F75 are just what we in NZ call mutton dressed as lamb

You forgot to include the AT Pro and AT Max.

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I wonder how many people worked their way up through detectors like I did, starting at the bottom and gradually buying and trying their way up to the flagships of the various manufactures?   I think when you do it that way you have a different perspective on the various mfg's and models, as I had to learn each one's strengths and weaknesses and how to make it perform for me, warts and all. I had to learn how they actually worked and did what they did.  And along the way I learned what I liked and what I didn't like.  And after a bit of that I learned how to read operating manuals and marketing speak which saved me a bit of money as I didn't have to buy and try so much anymore.

I don't think First Texas is in danger of following the path of Tesoro or Whites.   Tom Walsh likes metal detectors, so its not likely he'll quit making them as long as they make money no matter what people say in an echo chambers. 

I think the one thing that most affects Fisher is that their success in the gold market has led them to become the most counterfeited metal detector manufacture in the world, and in addition to that, you would be surprised where you find their T2 DNA.

Personally I think its the right time to go to direct sales with advertising and steer away from dealer networks entirely.  Dealers are no longer needed.  Nice to have, but not needed.  But they need to increase their presence in media and advertising to really make it work. 

Do they need a new model, yes.   Do they need to keep up with the trends and times, yes.  Do they have to be a market leader all the time to succeed, no.   

HH
Mike    

 

 

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11 hours ago, phrunt said:

And detectors like the T2/F75 are just what we in NZ call mutton dressed as lamb.  Old worn out things priced and marketed as if they're modern top of the line market leading detectors, usually it's talking about older ladies all dressed up in skimpy clothes trying to pretend they're young again

And detectors like the T2/F75 are just what we in NZ call mutton dressed as lamb

mh9162013 said:

"You forgot to include the AT Pro and AT Max."

 

AT Pro (2010) and AT Gold (2011) would be more accurate. The AT Max was released in 2018 so one could question just how committed Garrett was to improving their product line or just keeping the same old tech. T2 (2006) and F75(2007) definitely are marketed as if they are modern, which is debatable, but they are not top of the line market leading detectors anymore compared to similar detectors from other brands=Simplex, Anfibio, Kruzer, even the Racers.........

One could argue that the AT Pro and the AT Max are still market leading detectors in some areas of the USA. Top of the line......outside of Garrett's own products.......not for me when a $254 detector can compete with them feature and performance wise and their own APEX would be my choice if I was going to buy a new Garrett.

When a beginner asks me for a recommendation, I steer them towards the Vanquish 440 or 540 or the Garrett APEX for the same reasons that phrunt suggested, except that I also ask them where they are located to get an idea about ground mineralization, their desired targets and how committed they are to putting in detecting time. I might recommend an Equinox 600, APEX or Simplex instead. Would I recommend an FTP product if they had the slightest bit of moderate mineralization or EMI, aside from the F19/G2+......no.

 

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2 hours ago, Mike_Hillis said:

I wonder how many people worked their way up through detectors like I did,...

My answer:  not very many, and way fewer today.  You're old-school, Mike.  (I consider that a compliment, BTW.)

I find it interesting when people like F350platinum talk about brick-and-mortar specialized dealers.  They are dying faster than the Brood-X cicadas (gone now) which came out of the ground here in the mid-Eastern USA earlier this summer.  As an example, I was in Colorado in June, looking forward to visiting Gold'N Detectors in Golden (just up the foothills from Denver) which had supplied me in the past with small, hard-to-get items such as books (they had a huge collection to browse) and coil covers, literally many shelves of different brands and sizes.  I walked in the door to find an antiseptic room, open in the middle (except for the money-handling station) and a few detectors hung on the walls.  The previous owner had died and the owner before her had been running the store, but he was past retirement age....  Apparently the heirs sold it to a nearby (Colorado Springs) company that does most of their business online.  I don't mean this mention to be a diss of that company but it ain't what it used to be and it sure wasn't anything I'm interested in.  The person behind the desk was nice enough but I didn't get the impression he knew a lot about detectors.  He seemed to realize quickly (probably because I was the 10 thousandth person to come in with that look on his/her face) that he wasn't going to make a sale.  He made a couple suggestions which didn't help, not surprlsingly.

Here's a question to think about:  how long has Walmart had detectors on shelves?  In the "old days" you had to either buy in a specialized store (or maybe a coin shop) or through mail order.  We also had magazines that did reviews and had articles showing detectorists finding valuables with a particular detector -- silent advertising.

I'm glad we still have Gerry, and he likes to talk (and give useful advice) over the phone, but how many Gerrys are out there?  It's a long way from Indiana to Idaho, even if they're close to each other in my Rand McNally road atlas (another product on life-support?).

First Texas has taken advantage of the changing sales climate.  They aren't alone in that, for sure.  I think kac asked a good question and I'm pretty sure we know the answer -- a huge percentage of detector sales (I'm tossing in my entry at 90%) are first time buyers, not readers of niche forums.  If you want a profit you'd better be selling where those people are buying.

While I'm on my soapbox, I'll throw out one more issue.  This morning our tree expert came around to give us advice on a dying tree.  He mentioned that he used to have 11 employees, he'd like to have 7, but all he has is 4 because he can't find people who can do the work.  Most hires (which he tries hard to vet) either aren't reliable or can't handle the hard work.  The USA has evolved into chair-sitters in more ways than one.  Engineers?  Well, they are a special class of chair-sitter but engineering takes hard work, lots of education and training, the right attitude, etc.  I seem to recall First Texas Engineering Director Carl Moreland posting here that there's always an open chair there awaiting a good detector engineer.  Criticizing companies from a distance seems to be open season here, and has been for as long as I've been a member.  (Full discosure -- I'm a participant.)  But one thing is true in 99.9% of those posts -- we don't really know what is going on inside these companies, and it might not be a fact that they are simply getting fat and lazy resting on their laurels as we often conclude.

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First Texas and Garrett have definitely made a lot of well earned money producing and selling a lot of entry level detectors. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If that is what they need to do to stay viable.......there is nothing wrong with that either. There is something wrong with marketing old tech as still as good or better than the new tech from other companies whether we are talking about entry, mid or expert level detectors. When entry level detectors from Minelab and Nokta Makro can easily compete and surpass most of the FTP and Garrett product line..... ( the APEX does too,) that is a problem, whatever the reasons for it are, that are out of the consumer's sight.

Thankfully, at least Garrett has released the APEX.

For FTP, how long have they had to just add waterproofing, more varied selectable frequencies (which would take care of most EMI) and internal wireless transmitters to their "top of the line" F75 and T2 ????????? (What.....Nokta Makro was able to do it easily on a similar platform). SMF added to those two detectors, even if it was rudimentary, would be really great.

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45 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

While I'm on my soapbox, I'll throw out one more issue.  This morning our tree expert came around to give us advice on a dying tree.  He mentioned that he used to have 11 employees, he'd like to have 7, but all he has is 4 because he can't find people who can do the work.  Most hires (which he tries hard to vet) either aren't reliable or can't handle the hard work.  The USA has evolved into chair-sitters in more ways than one.

I think the bigger issue is that many businesses aren't paying enough. The average cost of many thing have gone up over the past few decades: college, medical care, housing, cars, etc. (there are some exceptions, like many mainstream electronics for consumers). But minimum wage has not kept up.

I know many people don't earn minimum wage, but it creates a floor that many other wages are based off of. In other words, the wages for many workers haven't kept up with the cost of living. And working as a tree service employee is not only hard work, but it's dangerous! Which makes your tree expert's cost of doing business higher since he probably has more expensive workers' comp insurance premiums and possibly is subject to more government regulation (this might require him to hire a CPA and attorney).

But I agree that the attitude of workers is also not helping sometimes. Too many people think that just because they show up or have a degree, they're entitled to X, Y or Z. But they need to have the attitude of, "what can I do for my employer?" to really stand out. Or as Ray Stantz (from Ghost Busters) put it (I'm paraphrasing): "You don't know what it's like to work in private industry. They expect results!"

I'm not saying that workers need to be subservient to their bosses or that all that should matter is their job. But most employers exist to make money, not give other people a job. And I think that fact is often lost on people. Heck, I didn't learn that lesson until I was in my mid 20s looking for a job after grad school.

Gordon Gecko put it best: "it's all about bucks kid. The rest is conversation."

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41 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

For FTP, how long have they had to just add waterproofing, selectable frequencies and internal wireless transmitters to their "top of the line" F75 and T2 ????????? SMF added to these detectors, even if it was rudimentary, would be really great.

I have two theories in response to this rhetorical question.

One, their accountants crunched the numbers and concluded it wouldn't produce the necessary return on investment. For example, waterproofing is tough to do add to something after it's already been designed. Then add the increased warranty repair costs that's likely to follow and I can see why this hasn't been done.

Two, is it possible FTP doesn't care about long-term profits and is only in the metal detecting industry to make a quick buck, then leave? In other words, they acquire one or more businesses with substantial customer goodwill. They cut production costs (ie quality) adjust their marketing schemes to make the quick sale and wait for short term profits. Then once the target consumers have already been sold to or lost due lower quality products, FTP just sells off the divisions that are no longer profitable in a fire sale. But they don't care, b/c they already made back their investment and then some.

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25 minutes ago, mh9162013 said:

Two, is it possible FTP doesn't care about long-term profits and is only in the metal detecting industry to make a quick buck, then leave?

They didn't start out that way.  The new Gold Bug family and the T2 & F75 were developed after Tom Walsh bought and merged the three orignal companies.  I have a different hypothesis.

First Texas appeared to have tried to go in a couple directions:  keep the legacy lines for entry-level and mid-level customers and swing for the fences to develop high-end products for the aficianados.  There doesn't appear to have been any middle ground (such as upgrading the inards of the existing products as Jeff talks about).  Remember the CZX (or whatever it was called)?  They had (past tense, is it still present tense?) what appeared to be a load of experienced engineers to carry this plan out.  For some reason (which we'll probably never know, even if they do) that high-end path ran off the rails.  And what we have is the result.  Will they get the train back on the track before it's too late??  IMO they need more than a crack water PI.  It's going to be tough to compete with Minelab in the dry-land PI space.  Even a low-priced unit will likely just spur ML to lower the price on one or more of its products.   Wasn't that what they did with the Vanquish (aka:  low end Equinox) when it became clear that Garrett was going to produce an affordable, modern simultaneous multi-frequency IB/VLF?

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Brood X cicada photographed last week, it had just come out. 😁 I was at the farmhouse and spotted it from about 25' away, thought it was a snake at first. It's about 4" long.20210803_155051.thumb.jpg.d01ee2b6bf1941d4c9135d3d4df2e7ba.jpg

Welcome back GB!

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I probably sound a bit harsh on FT, it's because I don't like their false advertising, and there are laws against that sort of thing in my part of the world, I guess not in the US.  They're outright lying.  Maybe their excuse is they haven't updated their website since 2010 so they just haven't gotten around to adjusting their definitions of their detectors to be truthful.

While Garrett were stuck in a rut like FT were, they're crawling out of it now with the Apex and now through an acquisition they have the 24k which even though I am yet to own one believe it's the current top of the line VLF gold detector on the market.

And I agree with Mike on one thing, they are the most counterfeited detector on the market.  Without a doubt you can go buy a FT detector in my part of the world for cheaper than a cheap toy detector from a department store and you guys in the US may not know this but they're everywhere, easier to access than the real deal by a long shot and it's not just here, it's certainly Australia but it's also all across Europe too.  I have no doubt in my mind clones of FT detectors outside of the US would outnumber genuine ones at least 5 to 1 so you have to be careful buying second hand if you're paying a "genuine" used price as you're at high risk of getting a clone.

Part of this problem is obviously they've been on the market so long selling the exact same detector they've opened themselves up to being easy to clone, brands that release new detectors regularly it's just not worth the cloners putting the effort into duplicating their models as they can't keep up.  It's pretty easy to clone a detector that's been on the market since 2006.

I'm very anti clone detector as I would hope detector manufacturers use their profits to further develop detectors so us who buy their products benefit in the long run by having new detectors to swing, however FT have made themselves so easy to clone by selling detectors for decades with only small cosmetic changes.   See this article from the UK about the Gold Bug clones, and the guy in it is right.

https://detectingquest.com/2020/02/12/fisher-gold-bug-pro-vs-goldfinder-fs2-chinese-copy/

There was a new Gold Bug 2 paint job released recently, I couldn't help think that possibly the reason they did this was within the last 12 months the Chinese counterfeiters in particular have really started pumping out masses of Gold Bug 2 clones, it used to be you'd see one or two sellers on Chinese auction sites selling them and they were charging pretty high prices for them but now, for $150 USD you can buy one, they've absolutely flooded the market with them.  Maybe just maybe this new GB2 release was to counter that by changing the look of the detector so people know the real current Gold Bug 2 from the Chinese copy.  It will take the Chinese a while to adjust their build and release a new fake to match the new model even though the changes FT did were purely cosmetic and not an actual change to the detectors circuit board it will at least keep the genuine product looking different to the fakes for a while, and Chinese sellers are saying they're got numbers like 9999+ each of the product in stock so they've got a lot of the older model to sell.  I guess having numbers like that in stock also demonstrates how many they sell compared to the genuine product.

Something Mike said also resonated with me when he said you'd be surprised where the T2 DNA is hiding, and seeing it's such a cloned detector I can imagine it's slipped into a fair few detectors as a base for what they've currently made.  The problem with that is, why didn't FT further develop that DNA and make more modern detectors using it?  

I don't think FT will close down, I just think they'll move out of the detector market, or just pump out kids toys and their days of being a high end manufacturer are gone.  They can do well selling detectors to parents for their kids to get for Christmas and so on, that's the market they're really sitting in now anyway, although their marketing would suggest otherwise.

I envy your time starting at the bottom with detectors years ago and working your way up over the models through the years Mike, you no doubt know a lot more about detectors and detecting than I ever will, but I'm not going to use a hand saw when I can use an electric saw, I'm not going to use a hand drill when I can use a battery power drill, stuff using a hammer to put in 10000 nails if I can use a nail gun.   I'd rather start on a detector I'm going to stick with than work my way up, it ends up cheaper too 🙂   I bought high end FT machines thinking I was starting at the top, I had to replace them all with real top of the line machines once I knew more.  Maybe part of my gripe is I was tricked by the dated artificial advertising too.

I bought two Gold Bug Pros for myself and my wife right at the start of my detecting time, I ordered them from Australia to be sure they were genuine as I'd read about the fakes, I bought a T2 second hand in NZ and was worried it was a fake and not performing how it should so I bought another T2, the T2 Green new release and while it handles EMI better the performance is the exact same as my suspect clone detector.  I bought a Gold Bug 2 which I really like, I'm more happy with it than the others, it's great which is why I was disappointed when the new Gold Bug 2 came out after what, 30 years on the market and it's the same detector with a paint job.

By the way, the F75 LTD that I turned down to buy the Simplex+ sold for $284NZD at Auction with 4 coils, the stock coil, a 5" coil, and two aftermarket coils and a spare lower shaft and rain cover.  That's about $200 USD.   It was genuine with receipt and only a couple of years old, rarely used and looked new in box.  Fisher had no hope of surviving in our market when their high end machine can't even get reasonable money second hand.

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