New Simplex Or Used F75?

[☠ Cipher]

This thread is a bit dated, but since I see this question come up a lot, and now I’ve owned both, I thought I’d throw my 2 cents in for anyone struggling with this decision in the future. 
 

For sentimental reasons I’d have every reason to want to choose the F-75. I do think it edges Simplex out depth wise in some mediums as has been said, but not by much. F-75 has pinnacle ergonomics. Not long ago people were paying at least $1,500 for it and it had been considered among the high end of machines. Still is a top end machine in my view and the line it comes from was a breakthrough in how to employ a sort of simultaneous dual circuit single frequency mixed mode. 
 

That said, things have rapidly evolved since the F75 was launched. In fact, part of that evolution or revolution began with the AT Pro. AT Pro flew in the face of what we’d been told by many in the industry, that they couldn’t build us a waterproof model without a whole lot of weight, sacrifice of visual data, or prohibitive expense. They also told us hardly anyone would have use for it even if they built it. Even when the AT Pro were selling by the truckload and flying out of dealership doors FTP continued to dig in on this position and even when so many people said they would rather have a waterproof F-75 than an AT Pro. “You don’t want an AT Pro or a waterproof F-75, you just think you do” was the logic. “80 percent of AT Pro users don’t ever set foot in water” they maintained even as swimming hole, river, creek and pond hunting continued to grow in popularity as a source of continued replenishing targets and ready access. AT Pro carved out a growing niche that scarcely existed rather than pointing out that it did not yet exist as a reason not to. I’m aware that the original poster said this feature was not important to him. This may not always be the case. You don’t know how much you’ll use it until you have it. Land finds are drying up. Land Permissions are sometimes a lot of work to get.
 

Simplex gives you a supercharged AT Pro/Max at less than half the cost with features you won’t find on either the F-75 or AT series. The only thing that hasn’t forced machines like the F-75 and AT series lower their tags to below $254 or cease production is marketing and end user psychology. Dave Johnson once said the marketing and end user psychology is one of the things that fascinates him most about metal detecting. This is why I find it inexplicable that the Simplex and other product responses didn’t come from First Texas. Users want what they consistently say they want. If you build it, they will come. Nokta Makro hears this loud and clear. Whites heard it too late, and while the MX Sport ended up being a FAR better machine than many of us realized (some late testing in UK has opened some eyes there too) it also stubbornly persisted in neglecting new standard features and maintained unnecessary weight was necessary. 

[phrunt]

I agree wholeheartedly with that, the Simplex is a modern T2, something First Texas could have done years ago to have a more modern detector rather than their paint jobs as it seems they've hit a brick wall with technology 10 or so years ago.  Sure it'd still only be competitive with the entry level detectors hitting the market from other brands if that but they could have got in first and taken a chunk of the pie before the others like the Vanquish, Apex and Simplex hit the market. 

I'm really surprised how much the Simplex behaves like a T2, the performance feels the same, it really feels like they've got the same brain, only it's better with more features that make it modern.

I've been thinking for some time now these new entry level machines will make the high end machines from the likes of First Texas high end units seem way over priced and really can't call themselves high end anymore, their low end machines have fallen into the kids detector market and their high end machines are now just competing with the entry level units from the real players in the market. 

I'm only new to owning a Simplex but I'd never find a reason I'd pick up my T2 over the Simplex.  A F75 LTD came up for sale here with two coils, guy claimed it'd be barely used since he bought it new and it looked that way too, I had to choose between buying it and the Simplex and the F75 was cheaper.  I went for the Simplex, already owning two T2's I felt I'd be better off with a Simplex than the dated F75 with it's more modern design and features and I really think I made the right decision.. 

People won't even use a mobile phone that's 4 years old as the technology changes so much, a high end 4 year old phone barely matches an entry level modern phone, virtually any other electronic technology is the same yet detector brands think we'll put up with 10 or 20 year old technology in detectors, well that way of thinking is going to change and brands like Nokta and Minelab aren't going to play that game of selling dated old detectors forever, instead releasing "real" new models more often.

I can't see any reason other than brand loyalty and nostalgia that anyone would bother buying one of the First Texas VLF's, especially new.

[mh9162013]

1 hour ago, ☠ Cipher said:

The only thing that hasn’t forced machines like the F-75 and AT series lower their tags to below $254 or cease production is marketing and end user psychology.

I think that's part of it. The other part is that it would destroy sales and/or revenue from lower end models.

I love my AT Max, but is it worth the current retail price? HECK NO! In my opinion the AT Max with a coil cover and MS-3 headphones is "worth" around $400 (MSRP) or so in value compared to the Simplex and Vanquish 540. But what happens if Garrett sells the AT Max for $400? The AT Pro's MSRP goes to $350, Ace 400 goes to $300, Ace 300 to $250 and Ace 200 stays at $200.

 

[phrunt]

A lot of low end models need a run out, sell them off and stop production, they're pointless and too far behind other brands so they just shouldn't exist.  It probably helps them sell more detectors having all these similar models, and up sell to the slightly higher priced model when the production cost is likely the same,  with the Ace 200 and 400 the cost of manufacturing would be virtually identical yet they can make a bit more coin by up-selling people to the 400.

First Texas need a massive cleanup of models, most shouldn't exist and it's the only brand that has far too many models for me to even know most of their names.  The lineup is so stupid that the Bounty Hunter Time Ranger Pro is a far better detector than the Gold Bug Pro for a much cheaper price, but essentially the same detector at heart with more features.  They need to consolidate models, nothing was stopping them making the Time Ranger Pro be the Gold Bug Pro v2 if they wanted to keep the famous Gold Bug name and just not making the Bounty Hunter, or killing off the F19 as it's the same detector again.  They make so many detectors that are the same detector with a different name and paint job or a few little features enabled on one model and disabled on another 😉 It's ridiculous.

It's coming back to get them now though, the World is moving on from their dated detectors and sales tactics... new brands like Nokta are coming in to take over their market and doing it rapidly.  It's about time there was a big shake up of the industry and these dated brands selling their old technology either have to get their act together and make something modern and competitive or die off.

I feel sorry for someone new to detecting that goes out and buys some FT detector paying top dollar because of the name (it used to be a good one) and think they're getting a good detector, when they could have had a much better modern detector for less money had they of known more about what they were getting into.

[mh9162013]

4 minutes ago, phrunt said:

A lot of low end models need a run out, sell them off and stop production, they're pointless and too far behind other brands so they just shouldn't exist.

I think they exist because they sell well. A lot of people thinking about getting into the hobby are more likely to buy a $200 machine than a $300 one. Yes, a company can make more money from the $300 machine than the $200 machine. But they'd rather sell the $200 machine than no machine at all.

[phrunt]

Do they though? They certainly don't here.  It's extremely rare someone would buy an Ace 200, or a Go-Find, plenty of people are buying the Vanquish and Simplex though.   First Texas collapsed in our market a year or two ago as they just no longer got any sales so the dealer pulled out, the only First Texas machine you can buy new here now is the Gold Bug 2 which the Minelab dealer picked up that model, he just imports it from an Aussie dealer to give people the option of having it seeing it's a classic gold detector.

Maybe the people buying these entry level First Texas machines in the US are the sort that buy them for a kids present that gets used once then it gets thrown in the cupboard never to be seen again so they don't really care how good it really is.

Nokta even pushed the boundaries with their Mini Horde kids machine making it waterproof and it's just over $100 USD I believe, it's a shame it doesn't have Target ID numbers though.

Thankfully Garrett has put in some effort recently to pick up their game.  I'm hoping First Texas sees just how far behind they're getting and they too try to become competitive again in the near future.  I've got my eyes on their Impulse Gold but I hope it just doesn't end up a QED with a custom First Texas coil.

[kac]

There was another thread somewhere on the forum about this that I can't find.

As tech and R&D gets paid off there is no reason to keep a price high and reinvesting that tech into more cost effective designs is smart. Consolidating parts used and applying same components across a product line also helps keep costs down. Too many similar models or models with dumbed down features even though they cost the same to make only to create a product line is just stupid. Too many options can discourage a prospective buyer especially if they don't have enough knowledge and become confused.

You can apply all the above to many of the detector companies today.

[phrunt]

Some people are clueless though, you put two products in front of them one with a high price and even though the box clearly shows it's a far worse product than the cheaper one people will buy it because it is the more expensive one.

So a Simplex box in a shop showing all the fancy modern features and so on at a half the price for example sitting next to a F75 someone is likely to pick up the F75 just because it costs a lot more thinking it must be better.

It doesn't help though that if you go to the First Texas website and look at some of their models their claims are a bit dubious

"The F75 - The Ultimate Detector! The metal detecting industry's premier relic hunting and general purpose metal detector."

"Teknetics - Deepest Metal Detectors In The World"

"Fisher F44 - The Ultimate Weatherproof Multi-Purpose Metal Detector"

"Fisher F19 - New from Fisher®, the best relic machines ever!"

"Fisher Gold Bug Pro - The best, most versatile prospecting machine on the market! Incredible sensitivity to the tiniest gold nuggets. "

I'm not one to swear, but their marketing is full of cow dung.

[mh9162013]

23 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Do they though? They certainly don't here.

This forum is definitely not a good representation of the typical metal detector customer. The level of knowledge, experience and expertise from most users here is incredible and certainly seasoned veterans outnumber the greenhorns.

I think many Americans who want to dabble into metal detecting or are curious about it get a Bounty Hunter Tracker IV, some Chinese model or something similar that costs less than $125.

Or are you talking about metal detectorists in NZ? If so, I can't say why they would or wouldn't buy a $250 Simplex over a $100 Tracker IV. I'm sure supply issues and marketing play some role, though.

[mh9162013]

27 minutes ago, kac said:

As tech and R&D gets paid off there is no reason to keep a price high

But there can be, and I think the price of the F75+/LTD and AT Max are perfect examples of that. Sure, they're much cheaper than they used to be, but in terms of what they can do compared to the competition, they're very overpriced (at least in regards to traits that most detectorists value).