Testing The Garrett Apex + Ripper 5x8 Coil In A Thick Iron Trashed Area

[phrunt]

Thanks for your Apex reports, I've tried not too read too much on it as the more I read the more I end up wanting one but I'm insisting I wait until the AT replacement comes out, I hope they keep the nice big Apex screen on that.   I like the photo showing the sort of area you're hunting in, I only wish I could look for coins in a place with such history.   Hopefully you get your weird EMI type problem sorted out, it makes no sense unplugging the coil would resolve it, but glad you figured out a workaround.  

[palzynski]

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

Thanks for your Apex reports, I've tried not too read too much on it as the more I read the more I end up wanting one but I'm insisting I wait until the AT replacement comes out, I hope they keep the nice big Apex screen on that.   I like the photo showing the sort of area you're hunting in, I only wish I could look for coins in a place with such history.   Hopefully you get your weird EMI type problem sorted out, it makes no sense unplugging the coil would resolve it, but glad you figured out a workaround.  

Hi Simon ,

Yes this was strange this EMI pb it just occured once with the Ripper. Now I never unplug the coil connector , it is always connected to the control box, even when I dont use the Apex . With no more risk to damage either the connectors or the CB when connecting / disconnecting the coil  ... 

Concerning the Apex , may be you could be disappointed with it in NZ because for me it is more a machine for iron infested sites and it is not the deepest machine .   The Vanquish or the Equinox go deeper on clean soils  , but for me they are more difficult to use in the iron trash of European soils ...  

 

 

[kac]

As for EMI, I recently have been running into some knock sensitivity. I checked the connections, did a factory reset and still it would sound off. Usually machines with a threshold audio you can hear a flutter but experiencing that with other machines I dropped the sensitivity down and it really helped. Not all ares affect it and in general the Apex handle EMI pretty well. Wondering if Garrett has the sensitivity up just a bit too high for some areas in this last update?

[palzynski]

4 hours ago, kac said:

As for EMI, I recently have been running into some knock sensitivity. I checked the connections, did a factory reset and still it would sound off. Usually machines with a threshold audio you can hear a flutter but experiencing that with other machines I dropped the sensitivity down and it really helped. Not all ares affect it and in general the Apex handle EMI pretty well. Wondering if Garrett has the sensitivity up just a bit too high for some areas in this last update?

kac , did you notice these little false signals between targets with the Apex? 

From my standpoint I am now used to this audio behaviour after 25 hours with the Apex but there  are more stable detectors like the Tesoros and the XPs  for example.  I could not find a way to totally solve the issue , either reducing the sens , or switching the freq from MF to mono etc ...  For an experienced user it is ok but a beginner could find this audio a little tricky ...

However the Apex is still a great detector even with this downside , this because it is very fast and accurate on targets , also because it is a light machine etc ... Then may be not the gold medal for the Apex but the silver for sure ... 🙂 

[kac]

Machine likes to ground balance hot for starters so dropping the sensitivity a bit and ground balance seems to help. I've racked up a bunch of hours on it and found a couple things that make it unlike the other machines out.

Audio is short so larger targets you will get a beep on one side and beep on return over but a gap in the middle so isolating targets in high trash areas can be a little tricky. My work around is if I get a signal I will hit the pp on just before where I heard it beep and it will show where the target is and reveal size pretty well.

Ground balancing with sensitivity down helps the machine settle more accurately for me then I can up it a click or so after. This is really area dependant, some spots it runs fine. I do wish there was a manual ground balance so we could tweak it. Example the AT Pro I drop the gb so it is just above the positive (no grunt down pump) which works to about 5 clicks down from auto. The Apex seems to run too close to the ground phase so it can cause a small echo as you are hearing the ground anomolies.

My biggest concern is the coil knock, hopefully this is just local emi because if you have a knock sensitive coil then relic hunting in the woods where there are constant obstructions you will be at a loss as the machine will be sounding off on everything.

What I have been doing around high emi areas is I max the sensitivity and rais the coil to see if I get any signals and if so I cycle through the channels to find wich is the quietest. Then I drop the gain back down and ground balance etc.

It could be that these small coils are just very very sensitive on this machine. Curious if the larger ones are quieter.

[palzynski]

Yes I noticed that the Apex stability is area dependant . Sometimes it is quiet and sometimes it is a little more tricky . Weird ...

On the other hand my Deus is very stable almost everywhere using the factory modes , this without changing any settings .  I hunt on moderately mineralized soils but often very trashy (irons ).

Perhaps that Garrett will improve this stability in a future update as it looks like they already did with the 1.28.1 May update. I say "it looks like" because when I installed this 1.28.1 version in May I was not experienced enough with the Apex to distinguish a stability difference vs the prev. version.

Again it is not dramatic, the Apex works very well for me and has a lot of interesting features that compensate for this little downside ...😀

[kac]

Definately leaning towards emi as the cause of knock sensitivity and chattiness and knocking. Changing channels made a significant difference but not always possible. I had one spot I had to use single frequency to dodge the emi but that spot effects all my machines badly so wasn't out of the ordinary. Many places I can run it 2 bars own on sensitivity but some I drop down 3.

I figure the slight loss of depth won't make any difference if you can't here the target with the chatter anyways and working well on picking through the iron.

When I got mine the first thing I did was update it so I never ran it with the original firmware.

[Monte]

• If I may, let me add my thoughts about both the Garrett Apex and Garrett 'Ripper' coil.  I've had and used my first Apex since  they were first released.  It was  version 1.23 and I used it a fair amount with the Viper' standard coil.  Then I bought a 2nd Apex, which was version 1.25, shortly after once I heard they were coming out with the 'Ripper' and 'Raider' coils, both of which I quickly acquired.  Soon, after putting time in with the Apex, I invested in a 4th new Apex.  It was also version 1.25.

•  Of the search coils, I especially favored the 5X8 DD 'Ripper' coil as a 'general purpose' search coil.  Since acquired, except  when I sent my first Apex into Garrett to address a noisy behavior, the 'Ripper' coil has stayed mounted full-time.  I like th 'Raider' coil for the plowed fields that were near where I lived as well as the low-target, wide-open areas, of big grassy parks.  The 'Viper' coil was put in my Accessory Coil Tote should I want it in the future.  The 3rd Apex is still awaiting a smaller-size coil from Garrett.  Until then, I have had a NEL 5" DD coil attached.  In March, before my move to Texas, I made a trade with a dealer fiend and got a 4th Apex, and that one keeps the 'Viper' coil mounted and is assigned as my loaner-unit for family and friends. When the Apex update came out, I updated all four Apex devices to version 1.28.

• All four units have my 'Custom' settings saved.  That means they start-up in MF, Sensitivity maxed at '8' bars, Volume at '8' bars, Iron Volume at '2', and the Discrimination accepts everything from '20' on up.  Coin Hunting in town I can sometimes encounter EMI and I fist reduce the Sensitivity 1 or 2 bars, and when really bad I reduce it 3 bars to a setting of '5'.  But that doesn't happen often.  Only once have I used the Frequency Off-Set to help deal with noise.  The Apex works quite well in most applications, in-town or out.

•  Along with my 3 Apex/coil selection I also have a Nokta FORS CoRe and FORS Relic, an XP ORX, and my Tesoro Bandido II microMAX and Silver Sabre microMAX.  I spend the bulk of my detecting time hunting sites with an abundance of  Iron Nails and other ferrous debris, to include an assortment of sizes of rusty tin fragments or shards.  ANY detector that I own and use has to match or come close to my Tesoro's performance on my Nail Board Test, and the Tesoro's produce 8-out-of-8 possible hits.  I will only keep a detector and coil combo for Iron trash hunting that provide me at least 7-out-of-8 hits ..... and all of my units do.

• As for their Depth-of-Detection, that is based on a combination of the search coil size & type used as well as the particular detector circuitry.  I can vouch for the fact that the Apex devices with their assigned search coils get very decent depth.  Easily achieving all of the functional depth needed for the wide-range of sites I hunt, regardless of the ground mineral levels I encounter - - - - and most of the places I go have a higher-level iron mineralization read-out to deal with.

• Do I really like the Garrett Apex?  Yes, indeed, and Yes, I especially like the 'Ripper' DD coil for general-purpose, day-to-day hunting.  I like the 'simplicity' nd I like the easy of quick, on-the-fly adjustment functions it offers.  Is it 'perfect'?  No, and I don't believe there is such a thing as a 'prefect' detector, but the Apex is very 'functional' for most people and for most search applications, including hunting in tough Iron littered sites.

• That said, I do wish the Apex had:

 →→ Manual Ground Balance

→→ A variable Threshold control to go with

→→ A  traditional threshold-based All Metal mode

We just need to remember that the Apex is a mid-priced SMF detector so it's possible some of these desired functions and features will be found on an up-scale SMF model that Garrett might introduce in the future to complement the Apex.  The Apex is also rather forgiving on the search coil sweep speed, but I do try to work them and all my detectors at a more methodical sweep with ample search coil overlap.  I feel the Apex is a detector with a very good audio response that can be learned and appreciated if a user will hunt often enough to put in the time to learn of it's strengths and weaknesses.

Just my thought's,

Monte

[palzynski]

Now the fields are plowed over here ( North of France ) and one of my favorite testing area is available. It is a very old place ,dating from the Roman times and infested with thousands of nails. This field that has been detected since 20 years by dozens of searchers and now only  few tiny targets are remaining. The field is quite large , around 800 X 300 yards. The soil is moderately mineralized .

I must say that this area is very specific because of its ultra high iron trash that probably can be found only in Europe due to its old and dense history.

I decided to do a comparative tests between my 3 detectors ; a Deus HF round 9, an Apex Ripper and a Vanquish 540 V8.  Actually I already wanted to do this test last year but could not do it due to lack of time , covid lockdown etc ..

I have done 3 outings there with the 3 machines , for a total of around 6 hours detecting. The conditions were exactly the same for the 3 detectors , dry ground . The rule was to determine the ratio : number of coins found per hour , this for each machine.  

Long story short , here are the figures :

1 - Gold medal  XP Deus Lite WS4 HF , 7 coins found during 1h20 ---> 5 coins per hour

   The XP is the most stable of the 3 machines . No false signals , almost silent between the targets . Very accurate and reactive  on targets. Icing on the cake it is the lightest machine . A detector designed in Europe for European conditions ... 🙂
Settings : Deus fast mode , 30khz

2 - Silver medal Garrett Apex Ripper , 6 coins found during 2h     ---> 3 coins per hour

   The Garrett is fast and reactive on targets 🙂, but a little unstable with a few false signals , which means that you have to come back on these "false" signals to recheck them which is time consuming. Apart from this it is a light machine, fun to use especially with this Ripper coil ....   Probably the results would have been better if the Apex ran an higher freq like 25 or 30khz so that it could pick up tiny targets more easily. Unfortunately once again I had to disconnect/reconnect the coil connector to fix an EMI? pb.  The Apex is a good detector but its reliability is sometimes disappointing .... 🥵
Settings : relics mode , freq MF
   
3 - Bronze medal Minelab Vanquish 540 V8  , 3 coins during 2h  --->  1,5 coin per hour

   The Vanquish is a robust and very reliable detector , but clearly has not been designed to work in the high iron trash. It has been very noisy here with continuous high pitched signals and honestly it is difficult to use in such areas 👿. However for some reason I have always been lucky with my Vanquish and I found with it the nicest artefact of this testing session  , a fibula ( brooch ) dating from between the 1st and 4th century 🙂 , see pic below.  
Settings : JEWELRY mode

CONCLUSION :

At least I have learnt one thing during these tests ; it takes time to correctly assess a detector , especially when it has a new audio. This has been the case for the Apex. Now after 30 hours I think that I have a good idea of its strengths and weaknesses for my local conditions.  

Anyway I had fun with each of the 3 detectors in this field even if some are more efficient than the others ... Again these conditions are very specific and the results may be different in other areas/countries with less iron trash or more mineralized soil etc ...  

A few pics of the 3 outings below ...