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9" Round HF Sensitivity To Thin Flat Iron Question


kac

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On 6/5/2021 at 6:36 AM, kac said:

As I said stock coin modes the point where ground mineralization overlaps minimal iron targets is the issue. This may explain why bottle caps though they sound bad do not have any iron audio off edge of the coil. Wondering if the whole scale is mapped higher because on the Gold Racer 56khz a aluminum can would be in the 86-86 and similar frequency on the 9"hf is about 10 points higher in many cases.

Last question did XP have variations in batches on the machines, maybe some have a different firmware?

Chase do you have the x-35 coil too? If so might be worth testing that target against both coils.

I have already given you the answer to your original question which you have repeated multiple times. I gave it to you in my first post. There is nothing unusual or wrong with your ORX.

Your very rusted tin target just like some of the very rusted tin targets I have come across and kept, will not give an audible tone response in default Coin and Fast on the ORX or in any of the default version 5.21 Deus discrimination modes except for the Hot program which has iron discrimination set at -6.4. Yes the Deus adjustable discrimination scale for its discrimination modes is -6.4 to 99. ORX is 0 to 99. My thin rusted tin targets start audibly responding at -4.5 and give full audible response at -6. This happens with any XP coil at any frequency, reactivity setting etc.

Now, whether this limitation that ORX has in its adjustable discrimination scale will cause masking in real life situations..........I don't know. If I came across a target that nulled out the background chatter and indicated a pretty big target which was probably some form of iron, I would probably dig it out no matter what so it wouldn't cause masking. I just use the nulling as another indication of an iron target.

Jeff

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14 hours ago, kac said:

My bigger concern with the 9" HF is the blindness to iron objects

 

11 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

I would like to know exactly what mode and settings are being used in those instances.

1 hour ago, kac said:

As I said stock coin modes the point where ground mineralization overlaps minimal iron targets is the issue. This may explain why bottle caps though they sound bad do not have any iron audio off edge of the coil. Wondering if the whole scale is mapped higher because on the Gold Racer 56khz a aluminum can would be in the 86-86 and similar frequency on the 9"hf is about 10 points higher in many cases.

First of all, the "blindness to iron" objects which I know happens based on yours and Jeff's experience is not something I have knowingly encountered on a broad scale.  Therefore, I conclude it would have to be a very narrow subset of iron targets and the concern regarding masking, as I have stated previously, would not be something I would lose sleep over or that would make me personally hesitant to use the Orx in relic hunting situaitons.  But I do get that when you don't have full confidence in a machine and have a perfectly suitable alternative (e.g., your Kruzer) it makes sense to pull that one out for the specific job at hand.  The Orx/Deus is not a machine that every one who uses one necessarily clicks with because of its quirky audio and other unusual features.

As Jeff said, the additional adjustability of the Deus discrimination setting to "less than zero" can help reveal the target in the "disc" modes and that may be the missing link here.  One mode I like to run on the Deus is Full Tones/No Disc (-6.4) and you can believe not much in the ground is "invisible" in that setup but Gold mode/Gold Field really makes the ground "invisible" to me.

I would encourage you to see how your target responds to other parameter variations (frequency and reactivity) in both the disc and gold modes but other than that, you have what you have and should use the tool that you have most confidence in for any particular situation.  Another area where the Deus shines is in the ability to rapidly change the program mode by simply hitting the +/- buttons.  Another UI feature that was not included in the Orx.  That makes interrogating targets with different parameters (frequency and reactivity) within the same mode or even different modes (Gold, Deep, Fast) very easy and quick to accomplish.  You also previously mentioned that you were concerned about the lack of target ID in gold modes even though you got an audible target sound from your silent ferrous targets.  Well, to me, that is just another "tell" tool.  I often switch it up an search in Gold Mode and then if I hit something iffy (get no target ID), switch into a disc mode to further interrogate it.  But again, that is an approach that is really helped by the Deus user interface vs. having to cycle through modes with the # button on Orx.

As I said, the Orx simplicity does come with some notable compromises/limitations which can result in different behaviors at the very fringes of operation as well as providing more desirable audio options and that is the reason why I reach for the Deus and have Orx as a backup should I ever need it in situations where my Deus would be the detector of choice but unavailable. for some reason. 

1 hour ago, kac said:

Last question did XP have variations in batches on the machines, maybe some have a different firmware?

Not to my knowledge.  They came with ver 0.1 firmware.  XP issued the 0.1.1 variant presumably because of a handshaking problem with a specific batch of headphones but that firmware did not touch the signal processing aspects of the Orx which are contained on the coils (the remote does no real processing, just acts as a conduit for the user interface, visual ID, and wireless audio and "programs" the coil via the program settings options).

1 hour ago, kac said:

Chase do you have the x-35 coil too? If so might be worth testing that target against both coils.

Yes.  And I will do that as well with my iffy iron targets.  

And, no, you don't have to walk on eggshells here.  No one is going to have stroke based on what you are saying. When experienced XP users engage you, be sure to remember that our frame of reference is that we have been swinging the detector for years.  We have probably just committed some of these quirks to "muscle memory" in our detecting routine and don't consciously think about it as being as impactful as it might seem to someone new coming over from another machine.  We have seen it repeatedly when new XP users first get this mosquito noise generator in their hand, it is more often than not, off putting if you are used to bing-bong target audio or fluty tones.  Some swear it has no depth.  It really is not a machine experienced detectorists usually say is amazing right out of the box.  But invariably, most of the folks I know grow into it and eventually get more confident with it as they swing it more.  So if you feel like you can get over this specific issue and simply stick with it, you might be pleasantly surprised even as a relic machine.  I remember when I first got the Equinox, I had to make a deal with myself, that I was not going to pull my trusty Deus out for 6-mos until I either embraced the Equinox or wrapped it around a tree.  The first several weeks with Equinox were not inspiring a lot of confidence in me.  Now I love both of those detectors for what they are and use them both in different detecting situations.  GL HH and HTH

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When I first got the Orx like all my other machines I started to dig all at first to get first hand what the machine is telling me and what is in the ground so digging a lot of trash learning a machine is a must for me and as I know the nuances of it I will dig less trash and recognize better targets. This is why I dug the can that had a garbage sound but it happened not to have an iron signal. The can was on edge so keep that in mind. When l layed it flat I got no response, much like my mask id test.

Your grounds are most likely much different than areas I hunt. I try to find the iron to find where people were especially in woods hunting here and having an object be silent makes the machine useless. Hunting in all metal all the time is not a great option either and I might was well uses a PI if the all metal doesn't give me a ID.

Hopefully XP will respond back.

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XP already responded back by expanding the Deus iron range in more recent software versions from zero (0) to minus 6.4 (-6.4) in the Deus discrimination modes. They did not include that expanded range for the ORX Coin modes. That expanded range is included in the ORX Gold modes.

First photo is from the Deus Version 2.0 software default settings pages in the manual.

Second photo is from the Deus Version 5.0 software default settings pages in the manual.

The ORX default settings page has discrimination from 0 to 99

DSCN0066.jpg

DSCN0067.jpg

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11 hours ago, kac said:

Your grounds are most likely much different than areas I hunt. I try to find the iron to find where people were especially in woods hunting here and having an object be silent makes the machine useless.

Nope - I use the Deus/Orx exactly for that purpose.  Where there is iron, there are relics.  Deus has great affinity for iron and that is why it is my go to machine for seeking out the iron hot spots at any particular relic site - that is the essence of relic hunting.  It was as if Deus was designed the do that.  There may be some ORX limitations in that regard as pointed out above (0 disc not being transparent enough to some ferrous targets - gold mode tends to be better), I honestly am a Deus not an Orx user for the reasons I previously stated, but that did not have to do with the Orx being "silent" on iron. 

I acknowledge the quirk you have experienced, and I know in your case, you have experienced it at least twice so I understand why it shakes your confidence in the machine.  But calling it "useless" based on just a couple examples of silent targets seems a little over the top.

I obviously agree that you should use the machine that best suits your needs and nothing I am going to say will change that and it shouldn't.  It appears Orx is not going to be an ideal iron seeker for you.  Nothing wrong with that.

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6 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

no, you don't have to walk on eggshells here.  No one is going to have stroke based on what you are saying. When experienced XP users engage you, be sure to remember that our frame of reference is that we have been swinging the detector for years.  We have probably just committed some of these quirks to "muscle memory" in our detecting routine

👍👍

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Increasing the disc mode is much like the disc mode on the Gold Racer and I assume other ib prospecting machines as it control the break point between what is an iron signal and what is not so essentially a tone break. I used to use that and in conjuction with the id filter running same number to make the Gold Racer a single tone VCO and be able to trim out iron or foil so I didn't break my brain with the iron grunt.

In the case of the Orx with small fringe iron objects I believe they deliberately have a wider ground phase range to make it quieter in gold fields. This is possibly why it worked very well on the beach in wet sand but all at a cost of sounding off on those iron fringe targets. Gold mode is not filtered in that way and acts more like an all metal mode.

So if the HF coil can hear that small fringe iron then I would think it is possible for XP to update the Orx to make it more versitle for relic hunters. If the HF coil behaves the same on small fringe iron on the Deus then issue is on the coil and not updatable. Am I on the right track with that?

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I don

4 hours ago, kac said:

In the case of the Orx with small fringe iron objects I believe they deliberately have a wider ground phase range to make it quieter in gold fields. This is possibly why it worked very well on the beach in wet sand but all at a cost of sounding off on those iron fringe targets. Gold mode is not filtered in that way and acts more like an all metal mode.

So if the HF coil can hear that small fringe iron then I would think it is possible for XP to update the Orx to make it more versitle for relic hunters. If the HF coil behaves the same on small fringe iron on the Deus then issue is on the coil and not updatable. Am I on the right track with that?

Gold prospecting detectors using all metal modes like the ORX have to sound off on "fringe" iron targets since those fringe iron targets are often small gold targets or really deep larger gold targets that are being partially masked and have their audio and target ID effected by ground mineralization.

Your last paragraph has already been addressed by XP............buy a Deus not an Orx. If you happen to want to buy an XP detector but chose not to buy the full featured Deus, then as I have noted in my private messages to you, and you have duly noted in this topic, the Orx has some limitations in its lack of features in the discrimination modes. This has not been kept secret by XP. It costs half as much as a full Deus and should not have all of the bells, whistles and features. Why would they update the features on the Orx to compete with their own top level detector........?

I have many friends that own a Deus. Some of them still use the original low frequency coils and have never updated their software to even version 3.0........They are masters of the Deus, use it very effectively for relic hunting in thick iron and that is with the less feature rich version 2.0 software with the 0 to 99 discrimination range. 

I had a version 2.0 WS4 controller until two days ago when I updated it to sell. I air tested my "invisible" tin targets with an original low frequency coil using version 2.0 Deus Fast, 3 tones with iron set on default 6.8. Identical results compared to using Deus Fast 5.21, 3 tones with iron set on default 6.1 using the HF coil. I set the sensitivity just high enough to create some background chatter similar to an all metal threshold and the only response from my tin targets was a silencing of the background chatter. No audio tone, no target ID. The only difference was operating frequency which was 14 kHz for the LF coil and 15.5 kHz for the HF coil. Since I no longer have an ORX I can't do the exact same test. However, from all of my research and from others on this forum, I have every reason to believe that default Deus Fast and default ORX Fast are virtually identical aside from some of the adjustability limitations on the Orx version and would react the same way to my invisible tin targets. Also, I clearly remember using my Orx with HF coil using Coin Fast to detect some of my invisible tin targets and they reacted just like they do on my Deus with similar settings and the same coil.

So, the only "fix" as far as an update would be to widen the iron range into the negative numbers for Orx Coin Fast and Coin Deep. I don't see any reason why XP would want to do that from a business standpoint.

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57 minutes ago, kac said:

Increasing the disc mode is much like the disc mode on the Gold Racer and I assume other ib prospecting machines as it control the break point between what is an iron signal and what is not so essentially a tone break. I used to use that and in conjunction with the id filter running same number to make the Gold Racer a single tone VCO and be able to trim out iron or foil so I didn't break my brain with the iron grunt.

Yes.  That is essentially what you are doing with disc, determining the ferrous tone breakpoint, but disc does just more than determining where the ferrous tone break is, as the filter enables target ID of adjacent non-ferrous targets to be less influenced by ferrous down averaging.  It also enables the ferrous ID/iron probability algorithm to be more "accurate".  If you were to take DISC down to 0 the iron probability meter would not function in a stable manner (hence iron volume, so you can still hear the iron even while applying the disc filter).  The same is true for the combined horseshoe ferrous/non-ferrous & depth meter on the Deus.

Deus operates in much the same manner, however, you have the extended disc range down to "-6.4" providing more affinity for all types of iron and event metallic-containing ceramics and brick.  You can also designate up to 4 tone breaks (5 tones including the ferrous region), full tones, and pitch which turns Deus into a kicka** iron tone/vco ferrous/non-ferrous relic machine.

 

57 minutes ago, kac said:

In the case of the Orx with small fringe iron objects I believe they deliberately have a wider ground phase range to make it quieter in gold fields. This is possibly why it worked very well on the beach in wet sand but all at a cost of sounding off on those iron fringe targets. Gold mode is not filtered in that way and acts more like an all metal mode.

Yes.  Not sure about the wider ground phase range though.  What you are experiencing is the "default" ground sensitivity setting on Orx.  In a previous post, perhaps not in this thread, I noted that the Deus enables you to vary ground sensitivity to enable you to lessen the tendency of the ground phase circuit to overreact to discrete ferrous targets vs. Fe3O4 particles in the soil.  There may be some difference in the way Orx handles ground phase adjustments on the fly because of its ground grab circuit vs. manual pumping/tracking that is implemented on Deus.

 

57 minutes ago, kac said:

So if the HF coil can hear that small fringe iron then I would think it is possible for XP to update the Orx to make it more versitle for relic hunters. If the HF coil behaves the same on small fringe iron on the Deus then issue is on the coil and not updatable. Am I on the right track with that?

As I said before, you need to think of each coil as the processor.  The signal processing brains reside on the coil itself.  When you do updates that affect target processing performance, that is basically updating the coil firmware and updating the controller firmware merely to recognize the coil and to do the handshaking between the coil, the controller, the headphones, and, if you have one, the wireless pinpointer.  The controller is not the brains, it is just coordinates the wireless data and audio between the various peripherals,  provides the user interface, and stores the settings/custom programs that are sent to the coils.  That is the reason the coils are SO expensive.  On Deus you can basically just detect with the coil and the wireless headphones, you don't need the controller once you have the coil programmed the way you want.  In the UK most folks detect by audio only.  They look for the iron areas and cherry pick the non-ferrous out of the fields by tone only.  They don't even pay attention to target ID. 

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21 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Your last paragraph has already been addressed by XP............buy a Deus not an Orx. If you happen to want to buy an XP detector but chose not to buy the full featured Deus, then as I have noted in my private messages to you, and you have duly noted in this topic, the Orx has some limitations in its lack of features in the discrimination modes. This has not been kept secret by XP. It costs half as much as a full Deus and should not have all of the bells, whistles and features. Why would they update the features on the Orx to compete with their own top level detector........?

[Quoting Jeff here - but the discussion is directed to KAC]

Exactly - "Orx" coming from "Oro" for gold.  The Orx is first and foremost a gold prospecting detector.  The Gold/Gold Field modes on the Deus and Orx are essentially identical.  The Orx evolved from the Depar 600 detector which XP supplied as a pure gold field style prospecting detector for the African/Middle East gold prospecting market.  The coin programs are very really just extremely simplified versions of the disc modes that are available on the Deus.  The were included to broaden the appeal of ORX beyond gold prospecting use, but are extremely limited as a result, implemented almost as if they were an afterthought.  There are a number of advanced settings that are NOT accessible to Orx users that are adjustable on the Deus including iron volume levels, the ground sensitivity adjustment I mentioned previously, the various tone breakpoints and ability to designate and adjust pitches to each tone region, VCO pitch and "full" tone options (no tone breakpoints similar to 50 tones on the Equinox), notch settings, transmit power adjustments, and the silencer filter> in fact, this setting I am thinking, might have something to do with the issue KAC are seeing with ORX.  The silencer filter settings on ORX track with the reactivity setting COINS FAST (this is IMPORTANT!) and is fixed on COINS DEEP.  On Deus it is an adjustable user setting.  (see more on that below).

21 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

However, from all of my research and from others on this forum, I have every reason to believe that Deus Fast software version 3.0 and ORX Fast are virtually identical and react the same way.

Coin Fast does emulate Deus Fast except for one notable exception - instead of having the Silencer filter "Off = -1" fixed by default independent of reactivity setting, it actually tracks the reactivity setting used in the following manner:

Reactivity/Silencer

0/3 (Deus Only)

1/3

2/2

2.5/-1

3/-1

4/-1 (Deus Only)

5/-1 (Deus Only)

The upshot is that if you adjust reactivity lower than the default in COINS FAST, you will significantly increase the silencer filter.

Here is some more information on what the silencer filter does:  A few large iron objects or unusual shapes are often more difficult to discriminate. Often iron objects generate a few audible remnants of broken, or inconsistent signals (crackling). When you increase the silencer you are applying a filter which eliminates the crackling caused by ferrous. Level 2 represents a good compromise, but if you have difficulty identifying bottle caps, use level 4.  [Note that level 4 is not available on the ORX (Deus has 6 levels of silencer settings: -1 (off), 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4) and, unlike Deus, you cannot operate silencer independent of reactivity as noted above - you basically have 3 with reactivity 1; 2 with reactivity 2, and -1 (=Off) with reactivities 2.5 and 3 (the default in COINS FAST].

COINS DEEP uses the Version 2.0 Deus signal processing software - which is a little noisier than the Ver 5 Deus signal processing software used in COINS FAST but is a little more sensitive to weaker/deep targets on the fringe of detection.  In COINS DEEP, the silencer filter is off for all reactivity settings.

See the following for more information: https://www.xpmetaldetectors.com/blog-detection/en/technical/orx-help/

A couple of excerpts from the above:

Q: Does the ORX use the same settings as the Deus.

A: Coin fast is almost exactly the same as Deus Fast, it uses an active silencer depending on your reactivity settings. Coin Deep replicates the Deus deep program 6, it uses no silencer regardless of your reactivity settings.

Q: What is the difference between Coin Deep and Coin Fast.

A: Exactly what it says, Coin Fast will be better used amongst iron as it has a faster reactivity and a different iron filter.
Coin deep can be better suited on cleaner land as the settings used can give a little bit more depth, Coin Deep has less filtering than Coin Fast and punches a little harder.
*Note : Coin Deep can be used on difficult iron contaminated ground if you are experienced with the ORX sounds.

Also check out my ORX to DEUS comparison thread here:  A little dated but the information is still pretty accurate.

Kac as you can see, there a lot of nuanced rabbit holes associated with XP detecting machines.  I caution you making broad conclusions after only a few hours of swing time.

It takes a while to learn the ins and outs, especially with Deus with all the flexibilities in settings, but once you settle in to the subset of settings that works for your primary detecting needs, it is basically grab and go with adjustments being made primarily for target interrogation.  Orx just limits the landscape of options in this regard.

 

HTH

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  • The title was changed to 9" Round HF Sensitivity To Thin Flat Iron Question

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