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Garrett Rumors?


johnedoe

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I know electronic pinpointers are just accessories but they really should re-introduce the TRX pin-pointer.    If they don't like the existing pressure switch and want to put the Garrett buttons on it, fine.  but the circuit / performance itself needs to be put back into our hands.   The TRX is about the only thing that really competes against 1st Texas'  pulse pin-pointers.   

The Garret Carrot reminds me of the ACE-250.  Ok for the masses but not for the dedicated. 

Another accessory that was a winner was the ProStar headphones.  I'd like to see those back on the market, too.  I really like those headphones.   The cord is the right length, the cups are the right size and the sound is very good.   

Anyway....my nickel.  

HH

Mike

 

 

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3 hours ago, Mike_Hillis said:

I know electronic pinpointers are just accessories but they really should re-introduce the TRX pin-pointer.    If they don't like the existing pressure switch and want to put the Garrett buttons on it, fine.  but the circuit / performance itself needs to be put back into our hands.   The TRX is about the only thing that really competes against 1st Texas'  pulse pin-pointers.   

The Garret Carrot reminds me of the ACE-250.  Ok for the masses but not for the dedicated. 

Another accessory that was a winner was the ProStar headphones.  I'd like to see those back on the market, too.  I really like those headphones.   The cord is the right length, the cups are the right size and the sound is very good.   

Anyway....my nickel.  

HH

Mike

 

 

I agree that the FTP Tek-Point and F-Pulse are superior to the Garrett Carrot...at least in terms of hunting for coins in parks and yards.

I think one reason many people use the Garrett Carrot is b/c it's a good, solid pinpointer that comes from a well-known American company. So it's the first pinpointer they buy and b/c it does a good job, they never consider trying another type. I would have been that way with my Minelab Pro-Find 35 if it weren't for the fact that I like to mod my machines and I got a Carrot for free when I flipped an Equinox 600.

But after seeing the TRX and the XP MI-4, then after using the F-Pulse for many hours now, I won't go back to the Garrett Carrot except if my F-Pulse gets busted and I need to go hunting while I await its repair/replacement.

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On 9/1/2021 at 9:47 AM, Steve Herschbach said:

White’s went out of business because their models were old school big box designs, and even though old timers are fans of the big metal boxes, the younger generation looks at them like they are old rotary phones. There is little reason to produce detectors that were already failing on the market.

I hope you won’t take this as anything other than expressing a different perspective (albeit terribly long winded) that could very well be wrong in places, but the forum perception of Whites big box detectors doesn’t always hold outside the forums. Many newcomers initial perception is that machines like that and others with rear battery packs are packing power that the skinny (“flimsy”) machines without the rear battery packs aren’t. This is a pervasive perception among many (and maybe why  even partly NM are chancing the extra weight of a rear battery pack). They never know different unless they come to a forum and find out you could run most of them on 2 AAs or an 18650 for all it would matter. Whites understood that perception though. The different perception outside these forums is one reason the most prolific writers and commenters in forums are silent on social media. What we’ve learned here came at a cost of time and attention, and doesn’t hold out there where the perception of ordinary people rules. You could spend all day every day arguing. The Facebook pages are filled with guys half our age, and what we think they think, they don’t always. They think when it comes to power, tools (many see these as a power tool of sorts) and technology bigger means better and more powerful and many poke fun at those who can’t swing heavier machines because they say/think they can. They wonder why all of these machines aren’t running color screens and layers of menus like their phones in 2021 and are impressed when they see it. They watch the Curse of Oak Island and see Gary Drayton swinging a huge machine with a 17” coil and the perception of bigger means better and more powerful is reinforced. They look at prices and think more expensive means better. 

Those big black box machines are still very popular here and in Eastern Europe. Did you notice how long it took for all the V3is at all the dealerships to sell out after Whites shut down? I did. In our world it was overnight. Someone is bound to say dealers weren’t stocking them. In some cases that may be true as anyone can be a smaller dealer, but the big dealers all had them and then they were gone as soon as production stopped. That goes for nearly all their product. If anyone doubts what sells in the wild just look at eBay completed listings. In terms of Western Europe, you won’t find Garrett there much to speak of anymore either. Everywhere you look it’s Deus, Equinox, and sprinkled in a few Simplexes these days. Garrett is a global brand with global distribution chains. Whites was a national brand. People could get their hands on them overseas, and many in Eastern Europe went out of their way to do so, but it wasn’t made easy for them. In the UK some are just now coming to realize what the MX Sport could do in thick iron. 

We have a difference of opinion on whether Garrett should leverage the Whites brand where they can. I personally don’t think it wouldnt take much effort to maximize the effect of doing so. Even small gestures go a long way. We might overlook that even though Garrett may now own Whites, many Whites machines are already out in the wild, tons of them, and used machines are still competing for market share. Most people don’t buy multiple detectors, visit forums, or go to rallies. Those who are loyal to whites, because their machines do work, some of them as well as any, can just dig in and keep those models alive for another decade or so and as far as they are concerned lose no treasure over those big boxes. New people entering the hobby can and do take recommendations from ordinary folks as much as anyone at least in the US, and will buy used machines off eBay, Craigslist and FB marketplace. I’m not at all convinced forum guys are representative of all detectorists. That’s all market share that could go to Garrett by winning over Whites people by doing things as intuitive and simple as bringing back the Bullseye TRX, incorporating spectra vision into a flagship SMF. It’s not necessary to brand the whole product Whites, but throw their name around some features that people liked. Even Garrett people were excited when they thought the companies were being combined on some level. Many were whites curious but couldn’t afford some of their machines, or a second machine.

In a different thread you talked about how people were talking about Garrett in anger and frustration perhaps unfairly due to the failure of American companies to keep up. It comes across that way regarding whites when you suggest everyone should just put a fork in them and forget them, they failed, it shouldn’t matter what Whites people want (not saying you’ve said exactly that, just that it comes across that way to someone sympathetic). They did fail, but many of their detectors and detectorists didn’t/haven’t. They’ll be finding treasure with them for years to come until something really revolutionary comes along. To a good many people Whites still means high end quality. There are thousands upon thousands of V3is out there, and relatively few are resold compared to the overall numbers. In the forums the perception is nobody likes them and nobody can figure them out and they weren’t selling. Even if those machines are sitting in a closet, what sells and keeps these companies in business is what matters to us as it goes to the R+D of product we want to see. They sold well enough to nearly run out of parts, at the source, to make them. The fact is the vast majority of metal detectors sold are closet queens that benefit us.

Being a USA company and leveraging that Made in the USA label, Garrett needs to be successful nationally. They aren’t blind to the perception they left thousands of Whites patrons with and that it might’ve been interpreted that way. Indeed they get the question every day about whether they’re actually going to follow through. Most of those questions are about the big box V3i, the MX Sport and the bullseye Trx. Not all whites guys were going to go to Garrett, but the Made in The USA guys I’m sure would want to. That’s a great share of Whites guys who have their eye on Garrett’s next moves. Never underestimate the power of nostalgia and even small tokens of tribute. I want a Made in the USA company to succeed and get to the top too, and I’m not hoping Whites guys turn their backs, I just think it would be a good move to leverage a respected brand at least in token ways, merge technologies where it makes sense, and take advantage of an already established, loyal and cohesive customer base. Im not suggesting they bring back big black boxes to do it either.  Just that there were different perceptions about them whether positive, or negative and just willing to overlook them anyway for Whites name and reputation. 

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The V3i having Ground Balance Issues from day one …… very expensive to produce ……don’t think Garrett wants to deal with it……..honestly $1600 selling in today’s market…….good luck. …..maybe a scaled back V3i ??

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5 hours ago, ☠ Cipher said:

I hope you won’t take this as anything other than expressing a different perspective (albeit terribly long winded) that could very well be wrong in places, but the forum perception of Whites big box detectors doesn’t always hold outside the forums.

Cipher, I have to agree with you about the size & weight & balance 'concept' many have.  After White's 'downsized' their earlier bigger blue box and first few black box models to the 'SL' or "Slim-Line" housing used with the XLT, it made a lot of difference and improvement in the weight and balance.  I parted with my bulkier 5900 Di in June of '94 when I got an XLT and absolutely loved the much better feel.  They retained that physical package for the 6000 Pro XL / XL Pro and MXT / MXT Pro, and used that housing on the 'S' rod for the Classic ID and IDX Pro, etc.

I sold a friend of mine an M6 many years go after it came out, and today he also uses a modified IDX Pro and V3i, complemented by his MX Sport.  Never heard him complain about the balance of them.    I have other friends who still have their XLT's , XL Pro's, MXT's and enjoy them a lot and don't complain.  One of the reasons is the rear-positioned battery packs and headphone jack, where they ought to be.  And most of my avid detecting friends are aged from about 50 to 80 and, unless they have some limiting health issues as I do, they speak highly of those White's detectors.  Both for their performance, but also about their good balance.

I have two Tesoro microMAX units that are known to be light weight and easy-to-handle.  Two Nokta FORS devices that are also well-balanced detectors.  And I use three of the Garrett Apex units, each with a different coil, because they are very light, comfortable, and also work quite well.  Due to my age and physical impairments, getting around with a cane since March of '93, I need to have and use the lightest and best-balanced detectors I can.    One model I could have kept in my Detector Team was a White's MX-7 and I miss it for some uses and wish Garrett would bring that land-based detector back under their name.

White's had a umber of problems, really for the last couple of decades, that continued to build and add to their demise.  Detector model circuitry and physical design was a small part of it.  I had more search coil failures that called for repair or replacement than I have had from all other manufacturers combined in over 56 years of detecting.  Another issue was they kept their high-priced approach to most models while the competitors were reducing the MSRP of what they had, and that made most White's models a 'high-priced' option here in the USA.

For quite a while I could see the end in sight for White's, but I am pleased Garrett acquired the needed 'smart part' of White's and not the whole factory and a lot of dated manufacturing machines, etc.   Very pleased to see they brought out the Garrett GM 24K, and I hope / wish they would fit the MX-7 into their land-based product line.

Pinpointers?  The TRX was okay and a lot of folks like it, but I also know a lot who do not care for it because many had difficulty making the setting adjustments, or accidently they were easily messed up.  The same goes for the Fisher & Teknetics Pulse PP's.  Me?  I have 3 Garrett AP Pro-Pointers, assigning one to each Apex because they each have their own MS-3 Headphones and AT Pin-Pointer, and are paired so I head them in the headphones.  When I grab a Nokta or Tesoro model, I use the Nokta / Makro Pulse-Dive Pinpointer which works great and is almost impossible to accidently mess up a setting.

Garrett 'Rumors' are always interesting to read, like other brands, but what I see is actual 'happenings' going on and Garrett Metal Detectors doesn't need any 'rumor control' as they continue to progress and market products well.

Just my opinions.

Monte

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Opinions are just that. Opinions. I started with White’s almost 50 years ago, was a White’s dealer for decades, one of the largest, and involved directly with them on some machine development and promotion. I had a lot to do with the MXT becoming as popular as it did, and was directly involved in bringing TDI to market. I've owned like four V3i detectors, and still have a DFX. If you wanted to call me a fan of any make or brand, it would be White’s.

I also have a fairly deep reach in the business of the business (I usually have inside information to back up my opinions), and am just pointing out where reality is probably going to be, like it or not. If that comes across as cold hearted or unsympathetic I apologize.

I do agree it would be nice if they brought back the MX7, and out of all the lineup that is the most possible, since it shares so many parts with the 24K. If enough White’s fans lobbied Garrett directly it might make a difference. Outside of us forum nerds however, I’m just not sure the wider consumer market cares that much. I’d much rather see the high end version of the Apex myself. People keep missing the fact the Apex is a lower price entry model when they compare it to much more expensive detectors. It’s called an Ace for a reason, and is not intended to be a direct competitor to machines costing a lot more. Apples to apples it’s Apex vs Vanquish, not Equinox or Deus.

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I read some article on the internet somewhere about Whites demise, and the writer said a statement that sounded about right to me and it's not intended to be a dig at anyone, Whites designs were becoming old and outdated with little attempts by them to give them new life.  Whites supporters were also becoming old, and many reached the point they were not detecting anymore, or detecting in their mind more than they were in reality.  They were not needing to buy new detectors to put money in Whites pocket, they ran their 10+ year old detector and were happy, but money in Whites pocket 10 years ago isn't going to keep Whites in business now.

That's not word for word for the article as I can't remember it or find it now. 

My take on the point being a lot of their most avid fans had the detector they wanted and loved it and used it and had little need for another,  they said it was built tough and built to last (with exception of the coil I guess) so they didn't want to buy another one and were not sitting there wishing for a new model with more features, and the younger generation of detectorists were not really big Whites buyers.  The AT Series seems very popular among the younger US detectorists and that's likely Garrett's good marketing achieved that and their use in various TV shows, social media and so on. 

It might be a generational thing, my age group and younger grew up with the expectation new models of everything come out every year or two, it's been normal for us with just about everything for our entire lives and seeing older products on the market no matter how good they might be leaves us wanting a newer model.  It didn't matter if our phone broke down in under 2 years, we'd have a new one by then anyway.  Phones started to have fixed batteries that were near impossible to replace, we didn't care... as if we'd want to run an old phone.  This sort of mindset became common in younger people. 

The Nox came out with a battery built in and some of the older generation hit panic stations, many of the younger generation took it as it was great, that sounds like they'll have a new model out before the battery becomes a problem.   It's just a different way of thinking.  There was a lot of talk about it not being built to last, a bit of a throw away detector, to some that was a problem, to others it meant that a newer model would replace it, great.  For a business if you have to or want to buy their newer model every year or two that makes good sense for them, they need the sales to survive. If you build a detector with a lifetime warranty like Tesoro did with little chance of big upgrades in new models, why would someone buy a new one?   It just makes no sense from a business perspective.

It's a bit like cars too, you see some of the older guys driving around in their old cars with the "classic not plastic" stickers on them, and I could only imagine that sticker on a Whites detector 🙂

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This is by no means saying these people are wrong loving their older Whites, and that they shouldn't want to use their favourite detector forever but for a business that's primary role is to sell metal detectors, it's not a good business model and means they will fail when other companies are in the market using the constant new improved model disposable method that society is now getting so accustomed to.

I completely see the point of someone who did buy a detector 10 or 15 years ago and are still using it today, take the GB2 for example, other than a few annoyances with ground balancing and so on you could still do as good with it if not better than some newer models today even though it's 26 years old and you've had it from day 1.  The same likely goes for some Whites coin detectors I have no idea as I've never paid much attention to them with no availability in my country and being what I consider old technology detectors.  Again this is just a different point of view, not meant to offend anyone.

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1 hour ago, phrunt said:

It might be a generational thing, my age group and younger grew up with the expectation new models of everything come out every year or two, it's been normal for us with just about everything for our entire lives and seeing older products on the market no matter how good they might be leaves us wanting a newer model.  It didn't matter if our phone broke down in under 2 years, we'd have a new one by then anyway.  Phones started to have fixed batteries that were near impossible to replace, we didn't care... as if we'd want to run an old phone.  This sort of mindset became common in younger people. 

Great comment Phrunt, and I'd like the parse the above quoted section a bit, as well as use it to get on my soapbox. 

I think that a company can produce high quality products that not only last, but are reasonably easy to repair. And at the same time, the company is pumping out newer products every few years or so.

Or at the very least, the company doesn't put restrictions in place that limit the ability of the consumer to make their own repairs on a machine.

I think the bigger picture here is that metal detecting is a hobby that requires discipline, patience and thinking. I think many of the "younger generation" lack the ability to do any of those 3 things. Or if they can do those three things, they aren't looking for a hobby that requires them to do those 3 things. In case you're wondering, some may put me into this "younger generation" group, as I'm under 40.

I used to be in R/C cars and trucks back in the day...we're talking 2000s or so. This was a point where RTR (ready to run) models were really starting to become common place. Many of the "old school" R/C enthusiasts turned their nose up at this idea b/c new entrants into the hobby were better off taking the time to build their model cars before running them. However, the younger generation wanted to start driving their toys almost immediately. Now, RTR cars are the norm, and finding a "kit" is fairly rare, except for maybe the more higher-end or professional models.

I saw this mindset in action at a hobby shop around 2008 - some guy came in with his gas R/C truck and said it didn't seem to run right. The hobby shop owner asked what the customer did to try and figure out what was going wrong. The customer said, "nothing, I just figured you could get it to work for me."

If more and more potential metal detecting customers have that mindset (which in my opinion, is very troublesome and explains a lot of about today's society, but I digress), I think the failure to produce newer products more frequently is only a small part of the problem.

Just like there's been this rebound in the "geek" and "DIY/maker" groups that encourage people to make things and learn scientific, engineering and mathematical concepts (heaven forbid!), I think the metal detecting hobby needs that kind of boost. That's what companies need to focus more on, in my opinion.

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As I said, just a different perspective on Whites and why I think it couldn’t hurt Garrett to leverage it. I appreciate you guys not beating me up too bad on it. I debated whether to even post it for a little bit, but for whatever reason felt compelled to get it off my chest. I am rooting for Garrett, and Steve was right when he said we are often taking our anger at American companies out on them, when maybe we ought to be showing them support and encouragement when they put in the effort. I think really all they need to do is take a look at the NM model, and listen to their customers. If it’s one area American manufacturers have failed, it’s in presuming to tell us what we want in a detector and that we don’t really want what we say we do or don’t need it. 

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A good thing about this place is you can have an opinion that differs vastly from many others and not get attacked for it.    It takes a very stubborn person to think only their opinion is right and other peoples opinions don't matter at all.   It wouldn't hurt for manufacturers to read a broad base of opinions and try leverage them all to their advantage.

I'm glad you did your post, such discussions are what forums are for.

Listening to and communicating with customers is something many detecting companies could improve on, not just the US ones.

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