Making Use Of Monte's Nail Board

[kac]

No matter what machine you use, in high trash areas the smaller coils will be much better. No matter what machine you choose by nature detectors sense targets on top. Higher recovery speeds and more sensitive machines may pick up on targets next to trash better but again coil size is a bigger factor.

Knowing your trash can be helpful. As an example on the AT series and even the Apex a typcial square tab will be 53-55 and often higher and a nickel will be below that. Cut nails often fall around 33-36 range. Investigating targets that are not those particular numbers or sound different is important.

Lastly iron + a target nearby will give you 2 different signals depending which way you swing over the area. One direction may only have an iron response while another you may get a double target or even just a spike in the numbers. Iron next to a dime you may get a number in the aluminum range in one direction and iron only in another. Using a smaller coil will help separate the targets and help isolate them. When I hunt iron riddled areas I take a swing in couple different directions over each target.

[mh9162013]

12 minutes ago, kac said:

No matter what machine you use, in high trash areas the smaller coils will be much better. No matter what machine you choose by nature detectors sense targets on top. Higher recovery speeds and more sensitive machines may pick up on targets next to trash better but again coil size is a bigger factor.

I'm trying to figure out if getting the 5x8 coil and keeping the AT Max is worth it compared to just getting the Equinox 600 and using its stock coil (at least in terms of hunting in trash). Short of putting in several dozen hours comparing each setup in real-world conditions, I have a feeling this nailboard test might be the next best thing. 

I'm prepared to do use Monte's Nail Board test. But it'll take some time away from hunting and I want to make sure I'm not missing some setting or factor for the test that will essentially nullify my results.

Here's the deal: The AT Max's advatanges with ruggedness, use of AA batteries, S-shaft design and coil selection are the equivalent of the Equinox's advantages of more stable VDIs and more accurate VDIs at depth (to me). However, the AT Max's advantages aren't enough to overcome the potential Equinox advantage of being able to hunt through trashy conditions better than the AT Max, even if the latter has the 5x8 coil.

[kac]

There are some new SMF's coming out that may do better than the Nox, XP is rolling one out and Nokta. Personally I would hold up on buying any machine until I see how those perform.

I do agree the Max can be tough in very trashy areas, even my AT Pro is similar in that aspect though small coils make significant difference. I have been doing well with the Apex. Not sure if you would like the audio on that but it handles iron infestation and trash very well.

[mh9162013]

1 hour ago, kac said:

There are some new SMF's coming out that may do better than the Nox, XP is rolling one out and Nokta. Personally I would hold up on buying any machine until I see how those perform.

I do agree the Max can be tough in very trashy areas, even my AT Pro is similar in that aspect though small coils make significant difference. I have been doing well with the Apex. Not sure if you would like the audio on that but it handles iron infestation and trash very well.

Good point on the other SMFs machines. However, XP's offering is likely going to cost my soul to buy. N/M's offering will probably be affordable, but it'll probably has some growing pains I'd like to avoid. But even if my predictions are correct, there may be a slight influx of used Equinox 600s and/or 800s on the resale market, so perhaps it's worth waiting, whether to buy a used Equinox or new N/M...

As for the Apex, I've heard it struggles in mineralized soil, so that's a no-go for me. It also has a built-in battery. But if I'm able to find a used one for very cheap, I'll consider it. The cheapest I ever saw for a used Apex was $250 and that was still too rich for my blood.

Right now I'm leaning towards buying a used 5x8 AT coil and running my battery of tests on all my machines and their various coils (the Fisher F2 has a 4 inch sniper coil, for example). I can run these tests while I wait for an opportunity to test an Equinox on the nail board (perhaps someone from my local MD group will let me borrow a machine. But I don't know if it's worth getting COVID to do that...)

[Jeff McClendon]

How do you know that your soil has high mineralization?  Did you contact your local Agriculture station or another soil testing agency?  You do not own a detector with an Fe3O4 meter as far as I know. Does your Vanquish 340 get good depth with stable and accurate target IDs on 4” or deeper mid conductive targets like US nickels and pull tabs? Does it give ground feedback in the -9 to -7 range when swinging over target free ground at the end of each swing or when you slowly pump the coil?

[mh9162013]

3 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

How do you know that your soil has high mineralization?  Did you contact your local Agriculture station or another soil testing agency?  You do not own a detector with an Fe3O4 meter as far as I know. Does your Vanquish 340 get good depth with stable and accurate target IDs on 4” or deeper mid conductive targets like US nickels and pull tabs? Does it give ground feedback in the -9 to -7 range when swinging over target free ground at the end of each swing or when you slowly pump the coil?

I know it has high mineralization because:

1. The clay layer will make my Garrett Carrot and F-Pulse false (unless I touch the tip of either on the soil when turning them on).

2. The clay layer, when wet, will ring up as a quarter or dime on the Vanquish.

3. My Vanquish is basically blind to anything located in the clay layer.

4. My Vanquish, when pressing the horseshoe button, will read in the negative numbers (more than -1 or -2) no matter what part of the ground I'm swinging my coil over.

5. My AT Max's GB reading is usually in the 80s and sometimes low 90s.

If you ready my post history, it's pretty clear I have highly mineralized soil. 

 

[kac]

47 minutes ago, mh9162013 said:

I know it has high mineralization because:

1. The clay layer will make my Garrett Carrot and F-Pulse false (unless I touch the tip of either on the soil when turning them on).

2. The clay layer, when wet, will ring up as a quarter or dime on the Vanquish.

3. My Vanquish is basically blind to anything located in the clay layer.

4. My Vanquish, when pressing the horseshoe button, will read in the negative numbers (more than -1 or -2) no matter what part of the ground I'm swinging my coil over.

5. My AT Max's GB reading is usually in the 80s and sometimes low 90s.

If you ready my post history, it's pretty clear I have highly mineralized soil. 

 

Your F-Pulse should be blind to the mineralization as it is a pi pointer. If it is falsing then that may be from emi. I have both the ML Profind 35 and Nokta Pulse Dive Pointer. There are places here the PF will false on the ground and often from bits of coal but the Nokta doesn't see bits of coal. I tend to like the PI better but it lacks sensitivity to tiny stuff like earings.

For bad soil I hunt in areas that are swampy or on edges of wetlands that have bog iron which is a layer of rusty crap. All my vlf's behave the same and my buddies Nox reacts the same way where depth id junk until you scrap a bit of top off. Mineralization will show in the mid to high 90's. Other issue we have here especially in many of the lakes is we have a lot of smokey quarts that is loaded with iron. Moderate ground is 80's.

With that being said if you have a top soil layer that is active with earth worms and a clay layer below then likely your very lucky as the clay line will be where stuff will settle and not lower unless man has been there turning or moving dirt around. Targets would have to have quite a bit of weight and there would have to be a lot of activity to make something sink into the clay.

I think if you can't wait, the smaller coil for either your Vanquish or AT Max would do the trick for you and just make it so much easier to isolate targets.

[mh9162013]

38 minutes ago, kac said:

Your F-Pulse should be blind to the mineralization as it is a pi pointer. If it is falsing then that may be from emi. I have both the ML Profind 35 and Nokta Pulse Dive Pointer. There are places here the PF will false on the ground and often from bits of coal but the Nokta doesn't see bits of coal. I tend to like the PI better but it lacks sensitivity to tiny stuff like earings.

For bad soil I hunt in areas that are swampy or on edges of wetlands that have bog iron which is a layer of rusty crap. All my vlf's behave the same and my buddies Nox reacts the same way where depth id junk until you scrap a bit of top off. Mineralization will show in the mid to high 90's. Other issue we have here especially in many of the lakes is we have a lot of smokey quarts that is loaded with iron. Moderate ground is 80's.

With that being said if you have a top soil layer that is active with earth worms and a clay layer below then likely your very lucky as the clay line will be where stuff will settle and not lower unless man has been there turning or moving dirt around. Targets would have to have quite a bit of weight and there would have to be a lot of activity to make something sink into the clay.

I think if you can't wait, the smaller coil for either your Vanquish or AT Max would do the trick for you and just make it so much easier to isolate targets.

I agree that my F-Pulse falsing is a bit odd. You're right, it could be EMI or something other than the mineralization, but I think it's the soil. I say that because the F-Pulse will be silent until the tip of the pinpointer gets within an inch or so of the ground. Then it gives the "slight" beep of a potential target that's barely within range. But when I retune it (or reboot it) with the tip touching the ground, this problem goes away.

As for my soil profile, you're on point. Depending on where I hunt, the clay layer is either exposed to the surface (many parks I hunt at are like this) or it's covered by 1-4 inches of dark, mild soil filled with earthworms. Unfortunately, I've found plenty of coins (all clad) within the clay. But these were in areas where the clay was exposed to the air or there was 2 inches or less of soil before you hit the clay.

I run my Vanquish (340) with the V8 coil, but I haven't noticed that big of an improvement over the stock Garrett AT Max coil in the limited times I've hunted with it in the same trashy areas where I first used my AT Max. But then again, I have a feeling that no matter what coil size you use, if the ground is so trashy that swinging a coil in zero discrimination mode sounds like machine gun fire, you're gonna struggle with the trash. I'd say about 1/3 to 1/2 of the places I normally hunt are this trashy.

[Jeff McClendon]

2 hours ago, mh9162013 said:

I know it has high mineralization because:

1. The clay layer will make my Garrett Carrot and F-Pulse false (unless I touch the tip of either on the soil when turning them on).

2. The clay layer, when wet, will ring up as a quarter or dime on the Vanquish.

3. My Vanquish is basically blind to anything located in the clay layer.

4. My Vanquish, when pressing the horseshoe button, will read in the negative numbers (more than -1 or -2) no matter what part of the ground I'm swinging my coil over.

5. My AT Max's GB reading is usually in the 80s and sometimes low 90s.

If you ready my post history, it's pretty clear I have highly mineralized soil. 

 

My reason for asking these questions was to see if you had other detector options IF they would work in your soil or if you could possibly be limited to SMF detectors for optimum performance. From your somewhat testy reply I wish I hadn’t asked and I am not any more certain of your iron mineralization level than I was before asking.

First, the presence of clay does not automatically mean high iron mineralization which can definitely blind many detectors. The density of clay and the way it can sometimes force good targets to have poor target orientation can be a real problem. So is the presence of lots of organic material which is sometimes part of the composition of some clay layers. Clay layers can also cause a sudden ground phase shift which some detectors have difficulty dealing with.

1. As Ken correctly stated, the F Pulse is a Pulse Induction pinpointer. It can however go crazy in iron high mineralization. Mine will beep quickly and incessantly in some areas that I detect especially if the soil is extremely dry or wet and no amount of retuning will help. The only recourse is to lower the sensitivity level manually and even on low mine will keep beeping sometimes. 

2. The high conductor target responses of your Vanquish when the clay layer is wet is just pretty extreme and sounds like its very limited ground balance compensation cannot handle the clay layer when wet and is high toning to indicate it won’t ground balance. Otherwise, that is bizarre.

3. If your Vanquish is basically blind to anything in the clay layer……..that might be fixed by having an Equinox and manually ground balancing it with a ground grab often. I would not use the Auto Tracking ground balance until you can prove it can handle that clay.  I often hunt in areas where there are a few inches of sand or topsoil on top of a dense dark gray to black organic based clay layer laced with black sand. The black sand in the thick clay can drag non-ferrous target IDs detected by the Equinox down into the iron range. I have to ground balance frequently. There will be a few high tone squeaks on say a US clad dime, quarter or older silver coin but most of the sounds will be iron tones. After lots of experience, I have learned to dig these targets. So, your Vanquish may need to be used with zero discrimination in the clay layer (just a suggestion) so dig a few targets and see what happens.

4. Your Vanquish giving out negative numbers like -1 or -2 may mean there are very small iron targets and not just be ground responses. -1 and -2 can also mean the presence of coal, coke or high carbon organic material. High iron mineralization will usually show up on the Equinox and Vanquish as -8 and -9.

5. My AT Gold ground balanced at 94 to 96 in my area. Same with the AT Pro and AT Max that I tested. I have had my soil tested and have used detectors like the Fisher F75 in my area. The F75 always read my dirt as 4 to 5 bars, same with my F19 which indicates high to extremely high iron mineralization. Ground balance numbers may or may not indicate the amount of iron mineralization.

I have read most of your posts. I still am not convinced that you have high IRON mineralization in your area. You may have a different type of mineralization happening however. The only way to know is to get your soil tested, call your County agriculture agent or borrow a detector with an Fe3O4 meter.

[mh9162013]

28 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

1. As Ken correctly stated, the F Pulse is a Pulse Induction pinpointer. It can however go crazy in iron high mineralization. Mine will beep quickly and incessantly in some areas that I detect especially if the soil is extremely dry or wet and no amount of retuning will help. The only recourse is to lower the sensitivity level manually and even on low mine will keep beeping sometimes. 

Sounds like your "issue" with the F-Pulse is different than mine as I'm always able to avoid the slight beeps by turning my F-Pulse on with the tip touching the soil. The Garrett Carrot also has this issue with my clay, although only when on max sensitivity. I almost always hunt with my F-Pulse in medium sensitivity.

 

28 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

2. The high conductor target responses of your Vanquish when the clay layer is wet is just pretty extreme and sounds like its very limited ground balance compensation cannot handle the clay layer when wet and is high toning to indicate it won’t ground balance. Otherwise, that is bizarre.

Yes, it is odd. I remember taking my Vanquish (540 with the V12 coil, back then) in my backyard after a recent rain and literally every few yards, I was getting a quarter VDI (low 30s and upper 20s). I dug about 5 holes and every time, there was nothing by soggy clay. And the most frustrating thing was that these ghost signals were sharp and distinct, indistinguishable from a coin signal.

 

28 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

3. If your Vanquish is basically blind to anything in the clay layer……..that might be fixed by having an Equinox and manually ground balancing it with a ground grab often.

I agree, 100%. And this is the primary reason I sold my 540 (but still have the 340) and got the AT Max. So my AT Max with ground balancing is able to see targets in or around this clay better than my Vanquish can. It's probably not as good as the Equinox, but it's good enough for me (maybe ignorance is bliss). But this current concern about the AT Max's difficulty seeing through trash is not good enough for me.

 

28 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

I have read most of your posts. I still am not convinced that you have high IRON mineralization in your area. You may have a different type of mineralization happening however.

You may be right. I have no idea what kind of high mineralization I'm experiencing, but w/e it is, it's high enough to create significant problems with my Vanquish 540 such that I sold it and effectively traded it in for my AT Max.