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Deus II Details Here


Luis

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6 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

OK, I understand the Left Hand part of this graphic, but the RH?  (Full disclosure:  I don't understand French.  :laugh:)  The red lines are for FMF operation and the others represent different single frequency operations.  But what specific performance advantages are being displayed?  Here are some thoughts (which may be all wet):

1) You can't beat FMF in performance with any single frequency;

2) for iron discrimination and for large targets, there's a monotonic performance relationship with frequency;

3) for small targets, the opposite relationship (i.e. opposite compared to large targets) holds;

4) for medium targets, all single frequencies (as well as FMF) perform equally.

I don't think I'm overstepping to say that this diagram is just a general 'rule' and that exceptions abound.  Which end of the frequency spectrum caters to large targets and which to small?  (If gold detector performance is any indication, higher frequency for small, etc.)

First of all, Chuck, grab the version off the the English language XP website (language selection upper right corner).  Your takeaways are mostly valid.

However, I learned a long time ago to basically spend as little time possible scrutinizing or attempting to understand pseudo-technical marketing diagrams masquerading as scientific principle “explainers” from detector manufacturers.  Generally a waste of time, especially when they include the obligatory get out of jail free disclaimer such as the one that accompanies the subject graphic:

“The above graphic Illustrates the sensitivity and the iron discrimination capability depending on frequency and the advantage of Fast Multi Frequency programs covering a large spectrum of targets. This is only a basic schematic which can vary depending the programs and real terrain conditions.”

Way to not let yourself get boxed in XP. :laugh:

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The 'technical stuff' about frequencies really needs ignoring for now. Only when someone gets an oscilloscope, spectrum analyser etc near one can you really say what may be going on.
I'm skeptical about the sheer number of frequencies. My hunch is they may use three at a time, and choose which three depending on the mode selected, so they would use a lower-weighted selection for the 'milled silver coins in parks' mode, a high-weighted blend for 'sensitive' / ancient targets in old European farmland.
This is something I'm surprised that Minelab haven't ( yet ) done with the Eqx platform. ( or the FBS/BBS, in fact ). Currently, all the basic modes on the Eqx use 7.8kHz / 18.2kHz / 39kHz, but in principle they could shift them all down, to create, for example 6k / 14k / 30k : same ratios, same maths, just biased towards 'milled silver coin' hunting.
So, for this Deus2, the combination of (4 + 28 + something inbetween) may be the high-conductor blend, and ( 7 + 45 + something inbetween) may suit the medium/small target applications. "Pick a frequency, any frequency".
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13 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

Can you be more specific about which brochure you are referring to? Thanks.  I can’t find anything other than the updated compatibility chart ID’d as a brochure on the XP website.

Sorry it’s listed in the specifications section on their website for both both the 9 and 11 coils...must be something to do with the under water cable..

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3 hours ago, PimentoUK said:

The 'technical stuff' about frequencies really needs ignoring for now. Only when someone gets an oscilloscope, spectrum analyser etc near one can you really say what may be going on.
I'm skeptical about the sheer number of frequencies. My hunch is they may use three at a time, and choose which three depending on the mode selected, so they would use a lower-weighted selection for the 'milled silver coins in parks' mode, a high-weighted blend for 'sensitive' / ancient targets in old European farmland.
This is something I'm surprised that Minelab haven't ( yet ) done with the Eqx platform. ( or the FBS/BBS, in fact ). Currently, all the basic modes on the Eqx use 7.8kHz / 18.2kHz / 39kHz, but in principle they could shift them all down, to create, for example 6k / 14k / 30k : same ratios, same maths, just biased towards 'milled silver coin' hunting.
So, for this Deus2, the combination of (4 + 28 + something inbetween) may be the high-conductor blend, and ( 7 + 45 + something inbetween) may suit the medium/small target applications. "Pick a frequency, any frequency".

Yep other than from a single frequency perspective and "range" perspective (i.e., 4 to 45 khz), the individual frequencies matter little to determining performance and the number of frequencies simultaneously transmitted is also matters little to the "layman" detectorist.  But the marketing folks know numbers sell and there is a general misperception that the more frequencies the better as far as SMF is concerned.  The key "secret sauce" is weighting and filtering via the signal processing algorithms.  Something that can't easily be conveyed via pictures and numbers.  Basically, the only number that really means anything has nothing to do with fancy pseudo tech marketing speak...the number that is key is the number of keepers in your your pouch at the end of the day.  Ignore all the SMF numbers and fancy diagrams mumbo jumbo. 

And frankly, putting an FFT Scope on the end of a detector to count generated waveforms to settle the "number of frequencies" debates is really meaningless and a waste of time, also.  Either the detector is stable in salt or black sand at or near max sensitivity or its not. That tells you all you need to know about the SMF implementation.  Simple as that.  After that, trust the designers to be putting the sampling weighting, filtering, and processing where it needs to be to fairly optimize the conditions and targets described in the mode blurbs and get on with validating them in real world situations.  

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24 minutes ago, strick said:

Sorry it’s listed in the specifications section on their website for both both the 9 and 11 coils...must be something to do with the under water cable..

Ah, got it.  I see it now.  My guess it is simply the coil to lower shaft attachment bolt and grommet hardware and something got lost in translation.  I suspect the coil "antenna" cable will come with the coil (it may also be sold separately as a water hunting "accessory") but it appears to be attached with locking snap clips on the coil rib and top of the control box.  Since it's an antenna, no hardwired connection is required unless screws are used to provide a more secure attachment.  Guess we'll find out.

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Quote: "Putting an FFT Scope on the detector to count generated waveforms to settle the "number of frequencies" debates is really meaningless and a waste of time, also."

I don't agree, I think it's interesting to see what's really being done.


For one thing, it dispels all the marketing baloney claims, so people can disregard it. Remember when Minelab added the 4kHz option to the Eqx, and folks were wanting to know if it had been added to the 5/10/15/20 etc mix of the Multi-IQ mode, too? If they were properly informed, they would know there are no 5 or 10 or 15 etc in Multi mode anyway, so expecting 4k to be added would be a bit optimistic/unrealistic.


And secondly, a 'scope will show if XP have created something truly different and original, that no other machine has. For example, they may be using 'direct digital synthesis' (DDS), to drive the coil with near-sinusoidal waveforms, so it actually looks like 3 sine waves on the coil, not a mess of square-edged signals.

It's just possible they are actually transmitting a single square signal, and doing clever RX signal processing, much like the Tarsacci does.

Or... consider those expired Minelab patents for BBS, with sequentially-switched dual frequencies ? There's plenty of scope to do things with that tech. ML only used 3.125kHz and 25kHz for all their FBS/BBS machines. But the 1:8 ratio isn't actually important, and the individual freqs can be tailored to suit the targets you're hunting. So "4k & 32k" for silver coins, "7k & 28k" for general hunting, "15k & 45k" for small target hunting.

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2 hours ago, PimentoUK said:

I don't agree, I think it's interesting to see what's really being done.

I didn't say it was not interesting but the same folks who are swayed by marketing mumbo jumbo are not going to be convinced by FFT traces.   This is a world that rejected a 1/3 lb hamburger vs. the 1/4 pounder because, well 4 is bigger than 3.  I’m totally serious.  I’ve given up trying to enlighten people regarding the fact that ML does not actually transmit 5, 10, 15, 20, and 40 kHz, simultaneously.  It really doesn’t matter whether or not people think that’s how it works.  In the end they are either convinced or not by what they find with the machine.

It settles nothing when people are obsessed with meaningless marketing jargon and getting the actual waveforms does little to really inform even the technically savvy when 1) You can’t do anything about it 2) It only tells you less than half the story because the meat is in the signal processing end (and no manufacturer is going to spill the beans on that) and 3) I seriously doubt any company with a high profile like ML, XP, Nokta, or Garrett is going to fraudulently misrepresent that they are using SMF when they are not actually doing so, so the scope is not going to blow the lid off some purported manufacturer’s plot to pull the wool over the eyes of its customers.

Whether or not they mix F1 and F2 or shift to F3 and F4 in another mode, or whether they transmit sequentially vs. simultaneously, though intellectually interesting, doesn’t allow me to conclude much about how “good” their implementation is without knowing the signal processing algorithm on the receive end and no one is going to give us that info.  In other words, a lot of undue attention is directed at what is being transmitted into the ground when the real story is how the machine processes the that complex induced magnetic field associated with the target.  Let’s say they do implement a sophisticated and “mode variable” ratio  of frequencies, that’s all well and good but it can all be for naught if the processing is not up to snuff.

Furthermore, scopes matter less than real world performance.  I can easily bake off Deus lI against Tarsacci with targets in hot ground and know what I need to know about whether the Deus II SMF is all that it is cracked up to be without the test equipment.

Won’t keep me from looking at the traces, though. I am curious but really wouldn’t base a buy decision off that info good or bad. :smile:

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It's true that the performance is what matters, and the Deus2 could use innovative tech, but not necessarily deliver gains in 'finding stuff'  -- for example clever design may be responsible for the coil having 10 hours run-time, say, whereas if they had used 'regular' designs, the same battery may only have given 4 hours run-time. So the user is seeing a benefit ... but not in finds haul.
However your "stability in black sand" criterion is only one way of assessing how good /bad it is. Here in the UK, beach detecting is not the most popular niche, and farmland, ploughed or pasture/grazing , are the preferred locations. Our soil is busy with junk, but isn't actually strongly mineralised, in general. So most of the UK's prospective Deus2 customers are looking for gains that may be delivered by a machine that's nothing special in a 'black sand environment' .

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1 hour ago, PimentoUK said:

It's true that the performance is what matters, and the Deus2 could use innovative tech, but not necessarily deliver gains in 'finding stuff'  -- for example clever design may be responsible for the coil having 10 hours run-time, say, whereas if they had used 'regular' designs, the same battery may only have given 4 hours run-time. So the user is seeing a benefit ... but not in finds haul.
However your "stability in black sand" criterion is only one way of assessing how good /bad it is. Here in the UK, beach detecting is not the most popular niche, and farmland, ploughed or pasture/grazing , are the preferred locations. Our soil is busy with junk, but isn't actually strongly mineralised, in general. So most of the UK's prospective Deus2 customers are looking for gains that may be delivered by a machine that's nothing special in a 'black sand environment' .

Agree.  To that point the Deus II SMF probably does not bring that much to the table for the mild soil UK relic hunter.  Certainly not improved depth vs. Deus 1 with the only possible area of interest being any refinements XP made to the audio in D2 vs. D1 and perhaps improved iron filtering a la Equinox’s iron bias filtering which can only be implemented when operating in multi.

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2 hours ago, PimentoUK said:

It's true that the performance is what matters, and the Deus2 could use innovative tech, but not necessarily deliver gains in 'finding stuff'  -- for example clever design may be responsible for the coil having 10 hours run-time, say, whereas if they had used 'regular' designs, the same battery may only have given 4 hours run-time. So the user is seeing a benefit ... but not in finds haul.  

...
 

I dont think there will be any performance miracle with the Deus2 for European inland hunters vs the Deus1 , except for big coins/relics hunting in clean soils ( low iron trash ) where a SMF goes deeper than a monofreq. This is why I could be interested by a Deus2 Lite version in the future .  I could then replace my 2 machines Deus1 and Vanquish by a Deus2.

But the main market in France for the Deus2 will probably be the beach , as it is already the case for the Equinox which is considered here as a pure beach machine when you talk with the dealers and the users. I know it is completely different in the US where the Equinox is intensively used for gold prospecting , park hunting , etc ... I dont know in the UK ... 

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