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Help Request For Md Rules In UK And America


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14 hours ago, Tom_in_CA said:

   🤔 🤬 🥵sshhh, It's as if we can be our own worst enemies   

Thanks Tom for Your reply...

I perfectly understand your point of view as It is like mine,years ago.

Beeing in the junk/lead/coins and gold business since 2005 I acted like a damn soldier (which I really was), assaulting every new coast piece at the first occasion, never talking about spots, never sharing a day with no one but a dive buddy for that day.

Unluckily the golden Dream was stopped in a cold winter morning in a place forgotten by God but really well known by a son of a B.

This was the assumed beach owner (outlaw invasor for more than 30years and never punished cause of his power in other kind of things).

At a certain time the man called the Police with the National Number and after half an hour diving I saw an incredible picture in front or me.

Did You ever seen a squad of armed forces waiting for You to leave the water?

Did You ever been photographed like a narcos being captured with drug in the hands?

I've been sued with other two divers and still waiting for a process since 2015.

Fact N.1 there was not any law to apply against Us diving there.

Fact N.2 the man that called the police was the one to be taken away from the area as It was a well known criminal and abused of the beach for business.

Fact N.3 there was other kind of interesting stuff to be found under the sand (on the dry) and he called the police to avoid much bigger troubles.

Now, trouble Is Mine and cause of the area was forbidden to him, I have to explain why my car was there near the beach and for what reason we were diving and detecting there.

Can You see a slight shape of Justice in this story?

So I'm tired to feel like a criminal when I'm approaching a dive session and I put my face for a dealer in Italy as a technical partner for instruments test sometimes.

I'd prefer to M.d. till the last day of my Life, preferrably without the jail menace.

My 2 cents...

 

 

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8 hours ago, Skullgolddiver said:

My 2 cents...

 

 

skullgolddiver :  Point duly noted.   I realize that when an injustice is ALREADY IN PLACE, then it *really doesn't matter* HOW it evolved.  Ie.:  PRIOR to your current predicament.  Eh ?  

So even if the current bruhaha is ONLY because persons PRIOR to this went and swatted hornet's nests (about cultural heritage bologna), then :  All you can do is deal with the CURRENT scram.  And can't-change-that-past.   Right ?  Have I understood you correctly ?

If so, I understand your lament.   So who can fault you for defending yourself and wanting to change the laws.   Right ?  And we can both agree that it's an uphill battle.  And guess whose desk the issue will land on , in any-attempt to change the evolution ?  :  Purist archies.  Hence a further-downward-spiral 😞

I hate to say it, but in cases like this, I would focus on this statement of yours :

"....At a certain time the man called the Police with the National Number ...."

Notice that THIS is where your troubles started.  Right ?   So it's really not an issue of the laws/rules he "called down" (and their evolution).  It's a function of this lone kill-joy, who chose to be an #sshole, right ?  

Then if you ask me, our goal, in cases like this, is NOT to "change the laws" (because it will never happen).   And it's not to convert this person or others to our point-of-view.  Instead, IMHO, it's now our goal to AVOID singular lookie-lous like this.   OH SURE !  I WOULD MUCH PREFER TO CONVERT HIM !   I would much prefer to change the laws.  GRANTED !   I'm just saying that , it aint likely gonna happen.

So my tactic is to 1) give lip service,   2) pay my dues for whatever singular episode occurred , and then  3) do it all over again, but *the next time* avoid said-singular-lookie-lou.

Some people might call that "sneaking around".  Ok, fine then :  SNEAK AROUND   😞

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It's legal to detect on any private property with written permission from the owner of the property in the United States. The arrangement for division of finds is a private matter between the landowner and the detectorist. There are no public or government ownership rights of discoveries on private land in the U.S. as is common in Europe and elsewhere.

It is never legal to detect on private land without the permission of the owner.

The privately owned lands encompass about 2/3 of the lower 48 states. These private lands are also the most likely to still hold undiscovered valuable items.

There are few places where it's legal to detect on municipal or State owned lands if you want to dig what you detect. Some public parks allow detecting as do some school grounds. You will need to inquire about each situation.

The federal public lands are, for the most part, open to detecting. Notable exceptions are National Parks, National Recreation Areas, National Seashores, Wildlife refuges and historical sites. 

Even with our limited history objects of historical significance older than 100 years can not be searched for or kept on any of those federal public lands. Found coins are an exception as long as they are not part of a trove. Treasure hunting is illegal on federal public lands without a special use permit issued by the managing agency. Those are never easy to obtain.

That's a general overview as there always seems to be an exception when you are discussing the rights of others.

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21 hours ago, Tom_in_CA said:

 😞  SNEAK AROUND   

😞

I might undertand what You're trying to Say and trust me, 9 about 10 times It Is always better to leave without any word or debate with people around when You're seen like an outlaw guy.

I'm Just considering what will happen to all of my stuffs and side hustle if tomorrow the last word from the government can be "stop"....

By the way sharing my experience and trouble was even to show what happens when there's no trace of a real regulation.

Be sure, if You get sued for a reason that's not punishable, in a way or another You'll finish to pay at least lawyer expences to clean the shit at the best.

In the worst case, Something more can be added Just to pay something in cash to the state.

 

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On 12/6/2021 at 10:07 AM, Skullgolddiver said:

Right now there's only a big mess.

I maked a video on YouTube to explain what will happen and a possible evolution for Us as certified operators but this take time to happen.The government Is not in the mood for a regulation, but for a total stop.

Maybe only a land owner can dig inside his property, but we all know this Is unreal.

If it comes to rules and law here (germany) the land owner is NOT allowed to dig without permission from authority.

You have to have permission to dig as there "could" be a historical path right below where you're going to dig. Only Bayern/Bavaria is expected from those silly law. But thze good thing is, getting permission isn't that big thing. Digging (only the use of a detector) can cause a fee up to 100.000 €. Oh, and all the stuff used while detecting, car to drive to location, detector, tools, cellphone for documentation...etc. can be confiscated and you'll never get it back.

CPT_ GhostLight is correct by saying the british law rocks!

Hopefully the law in your country will not become that harsh. Best of Luck to you.

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14 hours ago, Clay Diggins said:

It's......

Clay, you say : "....It's legal to detect on any private property with written permission from the owner of the property in the United States...."

I would digress:   "Written permission" is not required.   Verbal is just fine.  

For example:  If you invite your buddy over to your house to watch the super bowl, does your buddy need "written permission" ?   Of course not.  Verbal is *just fine*.   SO TOO is it with md'ing .  Since when does md'ing need "written" permission ? Says who ?  Where are you getting this supposed stipulation ?  I'm very curious.

 

You say :  ".... You will need to inquire about each situation.... "

And the way to "inquire" (if you're skittish) is to look up laws/rules for yourself.  If there's nothing there that says "No md'ing", then presto :  Not prohibited.  No need to go ask anyone "Can I ?"

You say : ".... older than 100 years can not be searched for or kept on any of those federal public lands..."

In-so-far as it pertains to various forms of federal land (where md'ing is NOT dis-allowed), SURE  😇   It's allowed, yet only in-so-far as you're in compliance with ARPA.   Hence, sure, you're only hunting for modern objects, nuggets, meteorites, etc....  Right ?  🙄

I mean, seriously now :  Arpa was to protect *obvious historic sensitive monuments*.  We can all agree with that noble concern at such places.  Sure, that's the spirit of arpa's intent.  Ok, fine: Avoid obvious sensitive historic monuments and archie conventions.

You say :  "... Treasure hunting is illegal on federal public lands without a special use permit issued by the managing agency....".

What is your source for this ?  And what is the definition of "treasure" as used here ?  You mean caches, right ?  Not individual coins, right ?  Ok, sure.  But if you meant "coins", then no, I disagree.   If you have a source that says otherwise, please link it.

 

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5 hours ago, Skullgolddiver said:

....You'll finish to pay at least lawyer expences to clean the shit at the best....

 

skullgolddiver, when it comes to the platitudes of lawyers, fines, sued, etc... :  These slogans get tossed around frequently in these discussions .  But what's odd is, whenever you ask the person for cases of such things, you tend to hear the "sound of crickets".  

If any examples of such horrors ARE forthcoming, it's invariably someone night-sneaking obvious off-limits sites.  Or someone being obnoxious who can't take a warning.  Etc.....

 

Not saying to "throw caution to the wind".   But just sayin', if we're talking a place where there's NOT a true and express law (and it's just the result of a singular #$$hole griper busy-body ), then ..... seriously .... can you cite any examples of lawyers, finds, suits, etc... ?   My guess is "no".

 

Not saying to throw caution to the wind.  Perhaps you'll need to "give the place a rest".  And perhaps you'll have to avoid the singular #sshole in the future.   But the alternative of thinking you/we must 'rush to fight these things' and "seek clarification", can often backfire and bring ALL THE MORE un-wanted attention  🤢

 

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4 hours ago, locator said:

If it comes to rules and law here (germany) the land owner is NOT allowed to dig without permission from authority.

 

Locator :  I see oodles of show & tell posts from guys hunting in Germany.  From all ends of Germany.   I'm assuming that they've all gone and "gotten permission from authorities" ?  Or ... ?  🤔

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On 12/8/2021 at 9:44 AM, Tom_in_CA said:

Clay, you say : "....It's legal to detect on any private property with written permission from the owner of the property in the United States...."

I would digress:   "Written permission" is not required.   Verbal is just fine.  

For example:  If you invite your buddy over to your house to watch the super bowl, does your buddy need "written permission" ?   Of course not.  Verbal is *just fine*.   SO TOO is it with md'ing .  Since when does md'ing need "written" permission ? Says who ?  Where are you getting this supposed stipulation ?  I'm very curious.

I never wrote that written permission was required Tom. I wrote that it was legal to detect private property with the written permission of the owner. In most states verbal is just fine right up to the point the owner denies giving permission or passes away without informing his heirs. Standing in court with a verbal agreement on one hand and titled land owner denying your right to a find on the other is much like floating on air - the result is always a quick descent to reality.

In some states written permission is required if the land owner is not present. In any state explaining to a cop or angry relative how you weren't trespassing because someone told you it's OK could easily leave you floating on air again.

On 12/8/2021 at 9:44 AM, Tom_in_CA said:

You say :  ".... You will need to inquire about each situation.... "

And the way to "inquire" (if you're skittish) is to look up laws/rules for yourself.  If there's nothing there that says "No md'ing", then presto :  Not prohibited.  No need to go ask anyone "Can I ?"

Inquire definition = to put a question : seek for information by questioning

It may or may not be true that "If there's nothing there that says "No md'ing", then presto :  Not prohibited" but that doesn't address the separate questions of digging and recovery - both of which may be prohibited by law or regulation even though the use of a metal detector is permitted.

On 12/8/2021 at 9:44 AM, Tom_in_CA said:

You say : ".... older than 100 years can not be searched for or kept on any of those federal public lands..."

In-so-far as it pertains to various forms of federal land (where md'ing is NOT dis-allowed), SURE  😇   It's allowed, yet only in-so-far as you're in compliance with ARPA.   Hence, sure, you're only hunting for modern objects, nuggets, meteorites, etc....  Right ?  🙄

I mean, seriously now :  Arpa was to protect *obvious historic sensitive monuments*.  We can all agree with that noble concern at such places.  Sure, that's the spirit of arpa's intent.  Ok, fine: Avoid obvious sensitive historic monuments and archie conventions.

And your point is .... ?

On 12/8/2021 at 9:44 AM, Tom_in_CA said:

You say :  "... Treasure hunting is illegal on federal public lands without a special use permit issued by the managing agency....".

What is your source for this ?  And what is the definition of "treasure" as used here ?  You mean caches, right ?  Not individual coins, right ?  Ok, sure.  But if you meant "coins", then no, I disagree.   If you have a source that says otherwise, please link it.

Treasure trove is legally defined as money, uncounted gems, or precious metals in the form of coin, plate, or bullion that has been deliberately hidden with the intention of recovering it later. If that trove is over 100 years old you can bet the government will successfully argue it's subject to ARPA. If it's less than 100 years old it's considered abandoned property and automatically belongs to the United States (the property owner).

That would be a pretty exhaustive list of laws and regulations Tom here's a few to get you started:

43 CFR § 423.23

43 CFR § 3715.6 Section J

32 CFR 643.37

50 CFR § 27.63

16 U.S.C. 551

There are many more. Each federal land management entity has their own treasure trove regulations and penalties.

As I wrote, one will have to inquire about any particular land's status. Assuming you didn't know so you should get a free pass doesn't really fly when it comes to government laws and regulations.

 

On

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1 hour ago, Tom_in_CA said:

Locator :  I see oodles of show & tell posts from guys hunting in Germany.  From all ends of Germany.   I'm assuming that they've all gone and "gotten permission from authorities" ?  Or ... ?  🤔

😇

 

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