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Deus 2 Vs Nokta/Makro Legend


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I'm not a diver, and maybe some real divers here could weigh in here, but I feel like many folks are misinterpreting the whole "waterproof" badging of some detectors and should consider some things if they are expecting to dive with or use a detector submerged for extended periods of time, specially in the ocean.

First off an IP rating does not guarantee an electronic instrument is dive worthy (true waterproof at depth in large bodies of water). An IP68 rating means a device is dustproof and can be submerged for longer than 30 minutes to at least 1 meter (3.28 ft), with no pressure rating requirement. According to IEC, manufacturers can determine the duration and depth test, which are typically 30 minutes to 1 hour at 3 meters (9.8 ft). This is usually done in a water container and not in actual ocean and wave pressures. So an IP68 rating is really doesn't mean you can dive with a device. It means it can be dunked and survive.

Clearly the Equinox was not meant to be a dive machine, although some people do use them for shallow diving. It's a wading proof detector. Even Minelab's marketing material states "WATERPROOF - EQUINOX is fully submersible, ideal for detecting at the beach and in rivers, streams and lakes. (3m / 10-feet)." But it does not say for detecting in oceans, or for diving, as opposed to their Excalibur which states; "WATERPROOF - Deep Dive Specialist - 
Waterproof up to 200ft (66m)".

With the new Nokta Legend having the exact same rating, "IP68 Fully submersible up to 3 meters (10ft) and protected from total dust ingress.", I'd be careful about expecting it to be much more waterproof than the Equinox even with a tighter housing and I wouldn't dive with it. 

 Now XP's new Deus II, even though tagged with IP68, exceeds those requirement to 20 meters (65.6 ft) and has addressed pressure differences as well. So I would expect it to be more waterproof than either the Equinox or Legend.

I'm not trying to be critical of the new machines, but wanted to point out things that may help someone who needs a machine they can safely dive with or have their detector submerged for extended periods of time, specially in ocean water. We won't really know what the new machines can do until we've seen them used in the field and underwater by real users, but I'm hoping for the best because there are few choices for the divers out there.

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9 hours ago, phrunt said:

Nokta released their Anfibio "Multi" switchable single frequency detector but called it a "Multi" which caused a lot of confusion among the general detector users, the amount of times I've seen people think the Anfibio multi is just like an Equinox with it's multi frequencies and not understanding the difference, it happens all the time.   People on this forum tend to be more informed, many elsewhere are not.   Nokta did this to remain competitive, to act like they have a competitive multi frequency machine to the less informed.   On their website it's called the Anfibio Multi (5/14/20 kHz) giving people the perception it's a multi frequency machine using those frequencies.   This was to stay in the game and bought them some time while they made a genuine simultaneous multi frequency machine.

I guess talking semantics (which I'm about to do) is a further degradation of time while we impatiently await the release of these two highly anticipated detectors.  However, in N/M's defense, I recall that before the Equinox was released there were two kinds of multifrequency discussed and delineated:  Selectable Multifrequency and Simultaneous Multifrequency.  I still use SeMF and SiMF in my posts but just about everyone else has gone the easy route.  So is SiMF any more MF than SeMF?

The slopiness and ambiguity in metal detector parlance frankly annoys the crap out of me.  What does "all metal" mean?  What does "horseshoe on" mean?  What is noise and what does 'noise cancel' mean?  What's the difference between VDI and TID?  (I think there is a difference here, but not the way most people use these, seeminly interchangeably).  It sometimes seems that manufacturers vainly reuse a common term to mean something different or create a new term which already has an exact word/phrase to cover it.

Plenty of blame to go around, IMO.

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Yep, but some take advantage of the slopping naming with no actual standards for their marketing purposes 🙂

The old X-Terra was multi frequency too, similar to the Anfibio although the method of changing the frequency was different and very dated now. 

Now XP has FMF Fast Multi Frequency, Minelab Multi-IQ and Nokta has SMF Simultaneous Multi Frequency,  I guess they'd be breaching trademarks calling it Multi-IQ too.

Marketing people can use all of these inconsistencies and confusing naming terms to their advantage to make products sound more similar to another manufacturers product than it really is.  I've seen many people confused by the Anfibio Multi to the point they'd argue it's multi frequency the same as the Nox.

There never will be standards as the manufacturers would have to agree on them which isn't going to happen so it's always going to be difficult for the newbie to sort through the marketing and find out what they really want to buy.

All metal like you pointed out is the other big confusing one.

 

 

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5 hours ago, CPT_GhostLight said:

I'm not a diver, and maybe some real divers here could weigh in here, but I feel like many folks are misinterpreting the whole "waterproof" badging of some detectors and should consider some things if they are expecting to dive with or use a detector submerged for extended periods of time, specially in the ocean.

First off an IP rating does not guarantee an electronic instrument is dive worthy (true waterproof at depth in large bodies of water). An IP68 rating means a device is dustproof and can be submerged for longer than 30 minutes to at least 1 meter (3.28 ft), with no pressure rating requirement. According to IEC, manufacturers can determine the duration and depth test, which are typically 30 minutes to 1 hour at 3 meters (9.8 ft). This is usually done in a water container and not in actual ocean and wave pressures. So an IP68 rating is really doesn't mean you can dive with a device. It means it can be dunked and survive.

Clearly the Equinox was not meant to be a dive machine, although some people do use them for shallow diving. It's a wading proof detector. Even Minelab's marketing material states "WATERPROOF - EQUINOX is fully submersible, ideal for detecting at the beach and in rivers, streams and lakes. (3m / 10-feet)." But it does not say for detecting in oceans, or for diving, as opposed to their Excalibur which states; "WATERPROOF - Deep Dive Specialist - 
Waterproof up to 200ft (66m)".

With the new Nokta Legend having the exact same rating, "IP68 Fully submersible up to 3 meters (10ft) and protected from total dust ingress.", I'd be careful about expecting it to be much more waterproof than the Equinox even with a tighter housing and I wouldn't dive with it. 

 Now XP's new Deus II, even though tagged with IP68, exceeds those requirement to 20 meters (65.6 ft) and has addressed pressure differences as well. So I would expect it to be more waterproof than either the Equinox or Legend.

I'm not trying to be critical of the new machines, but wanted to point out things that may help someone who needs a machine they can safely dive with or have their detector submerged for extended periods of time, specially in ocean water. We won't really know what the new machines can do until we've seen them used in the field and underwater by real users, but I'm hoping for the best because there are few choices for the divers out there.

Not arguing with your conclusions made in your post. I just want to reiterate what Minelab printed in their manual which is:

Beach 2 — Underwater / Surf

Beach 2 gives the best results when either wading or shallow diving, with the coil and/or detector fully submerged. In these instances, there is a very strong salt signal present, so Beach 2 has a lower transmit power, which results in much less noise. This profile may also be useful in dry conditions where there are extremely high ground noise levels. Beach 2 Multi- IQ processes a very low weighted multi-frequency combination, using the same algorithms as Beach 1 to maximise ground balancing for salt.

 

So Minelab gave the OK for people to fully submerge the Equinox in salt water and to do shallow diving down to 10 ft. Nothing was said about slow moving water, wave action, pressure differences, IP ratings or length of time submerged. 

Like Rick, I have stopped submerging my out of warranty Equinox 800. I do occasionally intentionally submerge my other 800 since it is still under warranty.

At least Nokta Makro have published IP ratings and from my experiences both in salt and fresh water, I have had no problems submerging the entire Simplex, allowing it to float basically unattended in salt water and using it submerged in fast moving river water. I had the same experience with the Gold Kruzer. 

Do I intend to snorkel or shallow dive for long periods of time with any of these "all purpose" detectors. Heck no. Will I submerge them........definitely.

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Yes.  Definitely Equinox does not specify an IP rating so it is hard to judge waterproof integrity equivalency with Simplex/Legend.  But to the CPT's point, these 3M detectors are definitely really just enveloping dunking versus shallow submerged usage vs. a true dive rated detector like Excal or even the 30M rated Deus II.

And before we crown the Legend design definitevly more watertight than Equinox (though I do believe that is probably the case) as inferred from Simplex's track record, let's put this perception in the proper context:

First, in the case of both Equinox and Simplex all we have is anecdotal evidence that Simplex is less vulnerable based on flawed/biased "data", if you can even call it that.  Yes, there are numerous reports of Equinox water intrusion failures which appear to dwarf reports of Simplex leakage (yes, they are out there), but we have no real idea what the actual numbers are and the percentage of failed units vs. the total that have been submerged. In other words, we have zero apples to apples comparative data.  Are there simply fewer Simplex units out there?  Fewer that have been submerged (it should be noted that as a single frequency detector it is not an ideal choice for saltwater usage vs. Equinox so less Simplex's would be used in saltwater vs. Equinox all other things being equal).  Bottom line, it is really hard to really determine with absolute certainty, whether the Simplex's seemingly better watertight track record is the result of a superior design.  Though my gut tells me that is the case.

The second issue is predicting Legend's watertight robustness based solely on Simplex's track record.  Dilek posted back in September that Nokta was apparently tweaking the mechanical design of Legeng to make it lighter.  It is conceivable that these changes could have altered the watertight design versus Simplex such that we will have to "wait and see" if Legend will emulate the "success" of the Simplex watertight design.

On the other hand, all that being said, two objective pieces of evidence instill confidence in the Legend's mechanical watertight design:  First (unlike Equinox) Nokta is advertising the industry standard IP68 rating which requires the design to pass a standardized watertight integrity test.  And, perhaps more importantly, Nokta made a statement of confidence in the Legend's mechanical watertight design by upping the warranty from 2 to 3 years.

Anyway, we'll see if Legend lives up to Nokta's demonstrated confidence in the design once it hits the beaches, lakes, and rivers.  It looks really promising, but not necessarily a given...yet.

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This information about Samsung Galaxy IP68 phones is a bit telling about how little the IP waterproof standards really mean

https://www.samsung.com/global/galaxy/what-is/ip68/

Devices backed by an international standard rating of IP68 are deemed fit enough to withstand dust, dirt and sand, and are resistant to submersion up to a maximum depth of 1.5m underwater for up to thirty minutes.

*Based on test conditions for submersion in up to 1.5 meters of freshwater for up to 30 minutes. Not advised for beach or pool use. Water or dust damage not covered by warranty.

They mean very little in the real world, nothing like what it'd be put through in a snorkel and swim around looking for rings situation at the beach spending the day swimming around with it.  The IP ratings are also tested in still fresh water.  So with manufacturers saying they can swim around with the Legend in up to 10 feet of water that's nothing to do with their IP rating, that's their own self testing of what they believe it will handle, and they decided they'd match Minelab for their Equinox depths, makes sense seeing they copied every other attribute.

I don't see a problem with Minelab not bothering with the IP ratings system, in a way it's more for marketing than actual waterproofing.

Some evidence of that is the Dues 2 is also IP68 yet they're saying "Made in France by XP, it is waterproof IP68 so you can dive with your DEUS 2 metal detector up to 20m deep."

So, seeing both the XP and the Legend are the same waterproof rating yet vastly different in their actual water ability, or at least in theory 🙂

Minelab didn't bother with the IP ratings with their Excalibur II either, and it takes the crown for the best of the ones mentioned, The Minelab Excalibur II metal detector is a fully waterproof detector designed for people who go diving. It is fully waterproof down to 60m and with good variable discrimination is able to discover treasure hidden under the water.

IP69K is the best of the waterproof ratings for the IP standards, interestingly neither XP or Nokta wanted to try achieve that.

https://www.larsonelectronics.com/blog/2017/02/14/led-lighting/overview-ip-ratings-waterproof-protection-submersibles

The highest rating one could possibly achieve is IP69K. This superior IP rating suggests complete protection from dust and protection from steam-jet cleaning (water temperatures up to 80 degrees Celsius). Some regulations, including IEC 60529, refer to the testing of IP69K as IPx9.

I think if I was a regular beach water hunter I'd use no less than the XP Deus 2, the Legend and Equinox can handle a bit of shallow water hunting but they're not the ideal detectors for the task.   We always talk about choosing the right detector for the job, a 10 feet water rated detector isn't the right detector for someone constantly hunting in the water at the beach.  

It is possible Nokta have limited theirs to 10 feet just to sit in line with the Equinox and their design is capable of more but seeing all they're trying to do is compete with the Equinox may as well stick with the safer 10 feet depth and get less warranty concerns.   Let's face facts them saying you have to keep under 10 feet means absolutely nothing it's not like they have a depth meter recording depths so they know if you've done the wrong thing.  By advertising it as waterproof to 10 feet someone can do what they want with it in the water and if it leaks they'll get it replaced under warranty so it makes sense for them to make it as waterproof as their budget and profit margin allows.

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19 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I guess talking semantics (which I'm about to do) is a further degradation of time while we impatiently await the release of these two highly anticipated detectors.  However, in N/M's defense, I recall that before the Equinox was released there were two kinds of multifrequency discussed and delineated:  Selectable Multifrequency and Simultaneous Multifrequency.  I still use SeMF and SiMF in my posts but just about everyone else has gone the easy route.  So is SiMF any more MF than SeMF?

The slopiness and ambiguity in metal detector parlance frankly annoys the crap out of me.  What does "all metal" mean?  What does "horseshoe on" mean?  What is noise and what does 'noise cancel' mean?  What's the difference between VDI and TID?  (I think there is a difference here, but not the way most people use these, seeminly interchangeably).  It sometimes seems that manufacturers vainly reuse a common term to mean something different or create a new term which already has an exact word/phrase to cover it.

Plenty of blame to go around, IMO.

Actually, SMF (simultaneous multifrequency) never existed as a term until Nokta/Makro screwed the pooch, and called their selectable frequency detectors multifrequency detectors. And you just invented selectable multifrequency, so you can see how this sort of confusion happens. :smile:

When I wrote my article on the subject in 2017, there was only selectable frequency, and multifrequency. That's it. Multifrequency meant simultaneous, so saying so was redundant. A simultaneous multifrequency machine that offered selectable frequencies was still a multifrequency machine. Selectable frequency machines, on the other hand, are still just single frequency detectors in that they can only run one at a time.

All was fine, then NM messed it up, and now we have to specify even more what we are talking about.

Looks like I'll need to update my article to add the latest machines.

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1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

And you just invented selectable multifrequency, so you can see how this sort of confusion happens. 

OK, it appears I've applied selective memory.  From now on I'm going to shorten that to SeM.  That shouldn't confuse anyone....  :unsure:

:biggrin:

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XP has a good strategy in putting the Deus 2 out there early in some users hands. Seeing what it can do seems to have had a very positive outcome and it’s not uncommon to find comments in the threads where demonstrations have given interested people the impetus to go ahead and preorder, with some even cancelling their Legend preorder and deciding to spend that extra $1,000. I’m closer to purchase of a Deus 2 than I’ve ever been myself, but there are still a few more tests I’d like to see and I’d like to see what the Legend looks like sooner rather than later. So far I’ve not seen anything out of Legend that inspires the kind of confidence and readiness for prime time coming out of the XP camp. XP seems proud as a peacock of what they’ve done here and content to let it speak for itself even in some hands that would’ve torn it to shreds had it not been up to par. 

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I agree, the silence from the Nokta crowd and the masses of videos appearing of the Deus are really helping influence me.  I can't wait to see the comparisons between the Nokta, Nox and Deus though...

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