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Did Minelab Multi-iq Obsolete Single Frequency?


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1 hour ago, kac said:

SMF is nice if you chase numbers all day, good in high trash and mixed grounds but for the most part I still believe the right coil for the job is more important.

Hell I still prefer my single tone analog and depending on grounds I'll use the concentric or dd I have for it. Still sniffing out stuff others miss. Sometimes with all the bells and whistles I get information overlaod and tend to start glossing over stuff. Single beep, isolate your target ranges and listen can be just as effective if not more.

I have just the opposite experience. Most single frequency and SMF detector target IDs are useless for 3” or deeper non-ferrous targets where I detect. So are my favorite detectors which happen to be Tesoro’s…..Cibola, Vaquero and Silver Micro Max. I can literally turn up the discrimination to Max and still dig beautiful sounding 3” and deeper US nickels, pull tabs, can slaw, .22 and bigger lead bullets and other low to mid conductor targets that in normal soil would be completely discriminated out by the discrimination set on Max or even on Tab………

The Equinox and Vanquish simply do not behave that way where I detect. I can trust the 5 tones or 50 full tones to be very accurate on non-ferrous targets. Sure, due to the way Multi IQ works, there will be some iron that gives non-ferrous responses if the iron bias is set low on 0 or 1. However, on non-ferrous targets even deep ones, I go by the tones first and use the numbers as a backup. So no, I don’t chase numbers all day when I’m using the Equinox or Vanquish. Hopefully, the Legend and Deus 2 SMF system will work as well as Multi IQ.

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12 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Tesoro’s…..Cibola, Vaquero and Silver Micro Max. I can literally turn up the discrimination to Max and still dig beautiful sounding 3” and deeper US nickels, pull tabs, can slaw, .22 and bigger lead bullets and other low to mid conductor targets that in normal soil would be completely discriminated out by the discrimination set on Max or even on Tab………

I was at first confused by this, but after reading it a few times I think I figured out what you were saying.  I'll summarize my interpretation and ask you to correct me:

1) The Tesoros have a threshold discrimination setting.  Any conductance below the level of the user chosen setting gives no sound.  Above gives a clean tone.  This is by design but in practice only applies to slightly mineralized ground and the shallowest targets in highly mineralized ground.

2) In mineralized ground, the response of the detector to mid-conductors (such as USA nickel coins and everyone's favorite -- small aluminum trash) gets shifted upwards to the high conductor range.

3) Thus setting the discrimination threshold to what would (in low mineralization) eliminate mid-conductor signals doesn't actually do that when the ground has significant mineralization.  Mid conductors actually give a clean signal because their response is now in the high conductor range.

Here's a question for you, Jeff.  What happens with true high conductors?  Do they still give good tones or do they wrap around to iron and thus get discriminated out?

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Like all single frequency detectors and some SMFs (including the Equinox using some of its selectable single frequencies which proves that Multi IQ is no joke) the low and mid conductive targets are up averaged quickly in high iron mineralization as per depth. The high conductive targets also inch up towards wrap around. On some saltwater beaches with high iron sand content, just about everything wraps around into the iron range when the targets are deeper. The same happens in high iron mineralized gold prospecting areas. 

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22 hours ago, cudamark said:

Models get obsoleted all the time, even before Equinox, but, I think we can safely say that the Nox put nails into many coffins. Not all, of course, but, why would anyone buy an AT of any model over an Equinox? Fisher model.....please. Is there one thing an AT or F? can do that a Nox can't do better, or, at least as good? Brand loyalty maybe? Regardless, even if you don't think Minelab has obsoleted any particular single frequency machine, they've sure obsoleted a couple of companies (Tesoro and White's) and put one or two others on life support.

Terrible leadership closed those companies down. The Nox had nothing to do with it. Look at the prices some are still willing to pay for Tesoro detectors. 

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Small numbers of buyers don't make for a successful business that's income is derived from selling product.

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1 hour ago, diggindaboot said:

Terrible leadership closed those companies down. The Nox had nothing to do with it. Look at the prices some are still willing to pay for Tesoro detectors. 

I absolutely agree, but, Equinox made them realize that their days were truly numbered since they had nothing on the drawing board to compete with in the near future. Their days of living on repainted old tech were over. If the Nox release had been delayed to market or hadn't been so successful, they could have survived for many more years and possibly have come up with something to challenge Nox. Their leadership was very shortsighted for sure. Keeping up with the latest tech with good R & D is crucial in electronics these days.

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22 hours ago, mh9162013 said:

S-Shaft design

Use of AA batteries

Wider selection of aftermarket coils

Better waterproofing

Made in America (if that's important to you as a purchaser)

For coin shooting in mild ground (with little trash) and for shallow coins, I don't see an edge that Equinox has over the AT Max.

For coin shooting in a tot lot, the AT Max and Equinox perform the same or are so close to each other, I can't really see a difference.

If the AT Max/Pro were priced appropriately (around the Simplex), then I'd say it's a viable option for many metal detectorists.

 

S shaft? Not a fan, and neither are any of my detecting buddies. Straight carbon fiber shaft is the only way to go IMO.

AA batteries? Not for me anymore if I can avoid them. Cheaper in the long run to use the latest and greatest battery tech.

You need more coils than what is currently available? I don't use but half the ones I have now! (I have them all, both stock and the Coiltek ones) Multi IQ is so forgiving, that even using the largest coil can be used in most trashy areas once you get used to it.

Waterproofing, sure, I'll give you a slight edge on that, except in salt water where the AT's fail miserably

Made in America? OK....So only Garrett or Fisher for you? Are all their components made in America? I seriously doubt it. Everything has become so global these days it's hard to tell true made in America products anymore. 

Shallow coin targets, well, even a Walmart or Harbor Freight detector will find those, so, yeah, the AT will too.

Tot lot finds, Not in my book. I find much more with the Nox in a tot lot (mainly tiny items or deep items) than any other detector I've used, period. Not even close.

YMMV of course with different conditions, but, this is what I've found in my area and with the places and targets I detect.

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35 minutes ago, cudamark said:

S shaft? Not a fan, and neither are any of my detecting buddies. Straight carbon fiber shaft is the only way to go IMO.

AA batteries? Not for me anymore if I can avoid them. Cheaper in the long run to use the latest and greatest battery tech.

You need more coils than what is currently available? I don't use but half the ones I have now! (I have them all, both stock and the Coiltek ones) Multi IQ is so forgiving, that even using the largest coil can be used in most trashy areas once you get used to it.

Waterproofing, sure, I'll give you a slight edge on that, except in salt water where the AT's fail miserably

Made in America? OK....So only Garrett or Fisher for you? Are all their components made in America? I seriously doubt it. Everything has become so global these days it's hard to tell true made in America products anymore. 

Shallow coin targets, well, even a Walmart or Harbor Freight detector will find those, so, yeah, the AT will too.

Tot lot finds, Not in my book. I find much more with the Nox in a tot lot (mainly tiny items or deep items) than any other detector I've used, period. Not even close.

YMMV of course with different conditions, but, this is what I've found in my area and with the places and targets I detect.

Two things.

One, I wasn't speaking about just myself. You asked why anyone would want an AT Max, Pro or Gold (at least, that's how I interepreted your post). I gave some potential reasons that someone (not just me) might want one of those detectors.

Two, those factors don't matter to you and I wasn't trying to say they should. We all have different things that are important to us, whether dealing with metal detectors or anything else.

I'm not trying to convince you to buy an AT series detector. The biggest problem is what their MSRP is, not what they're lacking in.

For example, if the Fisher F11 cost $4.99, we would all be singing praises about what a wonderful machine it is.

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While I'm all for the "made in whatever county suits" way of thinking, it's just rarely competitive, it may look it on the price tag but the manufacturer is taking the hit to compete.   If you produce your product in a country with higher wages, infrastructure costs, component costs, freight costs and so on how are you going to be getting the same profit margin as companies that moved to offshore manufacturing for higher profits often located in cheaper to produce products countries like Turkey or Malaysia for example.

In some cases like Minelab the possibility better manufacturing techniques by using a 3rd party electronics manufacturing company that are geared up for mass production of high end electronics that would be difficult and expensive to do in-house.  In their case it made far more sense to contract out their electronics to a business that makes such things in large qualities for medical, military, space and other high end applications.  Why bother setting up a factory to do it yourself when you'd have trouble ever competing with companies like that which their sole purpose is producing high end electronics.  I'm sure if you had a peep inside the Whites factory or even the First Texas factory and then had a peep inside Plexus you'd be shocked at the difference. 

Sure I like the idea of "Made where ever I want" but I've accepted that if I want the best products at competitive prices this likely isn't the best approach.  All that extra money Minelab make with their cheaper method of manufacturing ends up in the companies coffers, some is likely used for R&D for better products, some goes to shareholders which in turn strengthens the company.   Minelab would have really struggled to keep production in Australia as it has some of the highest wages in the World, along with some of the highest costs for real estate, transport and so on.   Why pay 100k+ a year wages for a truck driver if you can pay $10k elsewhere.  Times that by hundreds of employees all across the business and you see why they do it.  Yes, that means some of the money ends up offshore, unfortunately that's the world we live in now, countries have priced themselves out of the market.

While some manufacturers in their homeland may make good quality products, they may also be lagging behind in technological advances as they just don't have the capital to fund them.

Yes I love the idea of everything being made at "home" but I accept it's not always possible and those that don't end up doing it may suffer the consequences.  It sure gives you the warm and fuzzies seeing that "Made in whatever country you like" and the little flag on the box though.

The offshore method isn't always the best and most reliable, look at the failure rates of the GPX 6000, something is up there.  All it takes is one bad component worth under a dollar though, not the fault of the factory assembling the electronics, but bad luck with a product sourced for that PCB.  Can and does happen to almost every major manufacturer at some point.

It's be said the fake T2's cost the Chinese about $30 USD to make for parts and production which I believe, I wonder what the build cost for the genuine T2 at the First Texas factory is, I bet a lot more than $30, it's hard to complete with that so at the moment companies like Minelab and Nokta have an advantage because of production costs.

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58 minutes ago, phrunt said:

While I'm all for the "made in whatever county suits" way of thinking, it's just rarely competitive, it may look it on the price tag but the manufacturer is taking the hit to compete.   If you produce your product in a country with higher wages, infrastructure costs, component costs, freight costs and so on how are you going to be getting the same profit margin as companies that moved to offshore manufacturing for higher profits often located in cheaper to produce products countries like Turkey or Malaysia for example.

In some cases like Minelab the possibility better manufacturing techniques by using a 3rd party electronics manufacturing company that are geared up for mass production of high end electronics that would be difficult and expensive to do in-house.  In their case it made far more sense to contract out their electronics to a business that makes such things in large qualities for medical, military, space and other high end applications.  Why bother setting up a factory to do it yourself when you'd have trouble ever competing with companies like that which their sole purpose is producing high end electronics.  I'm sure if you had a peep inside the Whites factory or even the First Texas factory and then had a peep inside Plexus you'd be shocked at the difference. 

Sure I like the idea of "Made where ever I want" but I've accepted that if I want the best products at competitive prices this likely isn't the best approach.  All that extra money Minelab make with their cheaper method of manufacturing ends up in the companies coffers, some is likely used for R&D for better products, some goes to shareholders which in turn strengthens the company.   Minelab would have really struggled to keep production in Australia as it has some of the highest wages in the World, along with some of the highest costs for real estate, transport and so on.   Why pay 100k+ a year wages for a truck driver if you can pay $10k elsewhere.  Times that by hundreds of employees all across the business and you see why they do it.  Yes, that means some of the money ends up offshore, unfortunately that's the world we live in now, countries have priced themselves out of the market.

While some manufacturers in their homeland may make good quality products, they may also be lagging behind in technological advances as they just don't have the capital to fund them.

Yes I love the idea of everything being made at "home" but I accept it's not always possible and those that don't end up doing it may suffer the consequences.  It sure gives you the warm and fuzzies seeing that "Made in whatever country you like" and the little flag on the box though.

The offshore method isn't always the best and most reliable, look at the failure rates of the GPX 6000, something is up there.  All it takes is one bad component worth under a dollar though, not the fault of the factory assembling the electronics, but bad luck with a product sourced for that PCB.  Can and does happen to almost every major manufacturer at some point.

It's be said the fake T2's cost the Chinese about $30 USD to make for parts and production which I believe, I wonder what the build cost for the genuine T2 at the First Texas factory is, I bet a lot more than $30, it's hard to complete with that so at the moment companies like Minelab and Nokta have an advantage because of production costs.

Never underestimate the power of the "Go 'merica!" types. They are a powerful and influential set of potential customers, regardless of how much of their decision relies on reality or the perception of reality.

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