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Controls Are Dangerous, Keep Them Off Detectors


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1 hour ago, ☠ Cipher said:

...Admittedly my impression comes from these two posts.

Thanks a ton for linking those two threads.  I just finished reading the detectorprospector one from top to bottom.  So far the posters in it aren't convinced there was a loss of performance with DST, although it was a bit early in the game and more testing was planned.  Quality control during manufacturing was called into question, though....

1 hour ago, Cal_Cobra said:

The F75 was the "hot" detector for years.  I swung a F75LTD (later upgraded to LTD2 w/DST) for the better part of ten years.  It was definitely a noisy detector, and EMI could be pretty bad on it.  After upgrading it to the LTD2 (they had an upgrade program) it was a fair bit more quite.  I don't know that I would agree that the detector lost performance, that wasn't my experience.  I recall digging a bust half dollar at 10" deep at a small site that we'd all pounded to death after the LTD2 upgrade. 

Personally I think DST technology is a good direction as long as you have the ability to disable it if need be.

Good to hear that confirmation, Cal.  I've never tried running my F75 with DST turned off....  I've learned since getting the ML Equinox that knowing how to adjust controls (or just detecting with them in defaults) doesn't mean I know how to use a detector properly.  When I go back to my other models I find out something new almost every time out.

Addendum:  I've now read the Dankowski forum thread linked by Cipher.  It doesn't clear things up but does add some history.  The detetorprospector thread linked by Ciper mentions a software version 8.0.  The Dankowski thread was mostly discussing versions 9.0 and 9.1 so at least three versions have been released over the years, maybe more.  Other than claims (by at least some people who are widely considered reliable, qualified users/reporters) I didn't see a quantification of the performance difference, only the statement that it did exist.  Meanwhile there was mention of (perceived) changes in the audio, with newer versions sounding more digital than older versions (which were also digital, admitted by the claimants).  Also there is no indication in that thread that Fisher/First Texas changed its tune about being able to turn off DST, but there certainly was skeptism that this was the case regardless of what First Texas said.  Would have been nice to hear it from the "horse's mouth" ('horse' being Dave Johnson) but I've seen nothing yet that has Dave's signature attached.  I've invested enough time on this for my level of inquisitiveness so I'll just settle for not knowing the whole story.  In the meantime I can play with DST on & off with my unit and see what differences (if any) I can perceive.

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1 minute ago, phrunt said:

I have a 2007 I think it is model T2 and one of the new T2 Green that appears to have DST built in, and it can't be disabled on that model being a cheaper entry level T2 without their funky new boost mode.   The reason I think the Green has DST is its far better in EMI, far better.

The original is very wild to use, EMI is terrible on it which encouraged me to do my own EMI mods to it with more shielding paint and copper tape, it did feel like it improved it a bit but nowhere near the DST models EMI stability.

I think the new models better overall, the old model does seem a bit deeper but it could be in my head, on small gold tests I did I felt it did better than the new one.  I always use my T2's in All metal or with very low disc.  If I had to choose I'd take the newer DST one, I do wish I bought the one with boost mode though as it has a way to disable DST, I'd like to turn it off sometimes in low EMI.  With my Green T2 being their entry level T2 perhaps they thought they'd keep control to a minimum to not intrude on the higher priced T2 more so than they thought turning DST off would be dangerous to turn off for the user.

Another thing that resolved a lot of my EMI problems was ditching the useless stock coil and putting on a Mars Tiger.  Big EMI difference on both models.  Same with obviously putting the little 5" on it but the Tiger is bigger.

I had a T2 LTD w/DST for a while, and to be honest it was probably a better detector than the F75 for my type of hunting (relic sites mainly) but I was so heavily invested in my F75 (tons of coils) I ended up selling the T2 and keeping the F75 as I felt they were so similar, that it was redundant to have both.   It was pretty quite with DST.  

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Regards F75...Tom Dankowski reported almost an 1/8 of an inch depth reduction between non-DST vs DST units in his mineral free test bed dirt which equates to the difference between 12" or 11-7/8" on a dime.   No effect on a nickel on my experience.    The confusion really came from what setting really turned DST on.  Was it 91 or 90?   Was the operating manual right or wrong?  Only reason I have a F75LTD is because of DST as I couldn't use it otherwise.  

The issue with not having a control available means you have to own other detectors that do have the feature/control when you run into the situations that require the feature.   But then again, if you don't know what you don't know, then you don't care.   Until the moment that you do care and realize your model doesn't have it.  

Hey Carl....any chance you know those passwords and key strokes to unlock the VX3?  :biggrin:   

HH
Mike 


 

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2 hours ago, Mike_Hillis said:

Regards F75...Tom Dankowski reported almost an 1/8 of an inch depth reduction between non-DST vs DST units in his mineral free test bed dirt which equates to the difference between 12" or 11-7/8" on a dime.   No effect on a nickel on my experience.    The confusion really came from what setting really turned DST on.  Was it 91 or 90?   Was the operating manual right or wrong?  Only reason I have a F75LTD is because of DST as I couldn't use it otherwise.  

The issue with not having a control available means you have to own other detectors that do have the feature/control when you run into the situations that require the feature.   But then again, if you don't know what you don't know, then you don't care.   Until the moment that you do care and realize your model doesn't have it.  

Hey Carl....any chance you know those passwords and key strokes to unlock the VX3?  :biggrin:   

HH
Mike 


 

BINGO!  Mike your spot on!  There was a huge debacle about the manual having the setting backwards, and many folks felt it was more quite, and performed better with the setting the manual described as "off" so they assumed it was incorrect and that was actually the "on" setting.  I don't think FTP did a very good job of clarifying it as I recall so everyone was left wondering which setting was what.

Of course I don't doubt Tom Dankowski, he's one of the most knowledgeable folks I've ever met when it comes to deep dive detector testing, but I've also learned that inert Florida soil is similar to me taking a WiFi device into a RF chamber (large Faraday cage basically) to test radio performance in an optimal RF environment.  Put differently, those tests didn't translate well into real world west coast dirt results.

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2 hours ago, Mike_Hillis said:

Regards F75...Tom Dankowski reported almost an 1/8 of an inch depth reduction between non-DST vs DST units in his mineral free test bed dirt which equates to the difference between 12" or 11-7/8" on a dime.

So this depth issue revolved around a difference of 1/8"?  Wow.  What are the (quantified) uncertainties around the measurements that determined this discrepancy, anyway?

2 hours ago, Mike_Hillis said:

The confusion really came from what setting really turned DST on.  Was it 91 or 90?   Was the operating manual right or wrong?

Oh, well, that justifies an uproar.  If it matters, one ought to be able to figure it out by trying the two different settings with his/her own unit(s), assuming there is noise to be found in one but not the other.  Even if the quiet-vs-noisy setting value is different between different units, what importance would it have once a person figured out the appropriate settings for his/her particular unit(s) and made a mental note or just wrote it down?  (BTW, my questions are rhetorical, but I don't say that to silence anyone who wants to respond and clear things up for me.)

Thanks for chiming in, Mike.  I figured you would know all about this, given your experience with the F75.

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14 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

So this depth issue revolved around a difference of 1/8"?  Wow.  What are the (quantified) uncertainties around the measurements that determined this discrepancy, anyway?

I was thinking the same thing. 

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On 3/6/2022 at 10:11 AM, Geotech said:

The V3 is a counter-argument to this. It had (almost) as many controls as possible but people complained bitterly that it was too complicated to use. Even though there was a simplified interface mode (the "6-block" menu screen) for newbies and the placement of advanced features in the aptly-named Expert menus. Even adding a full interactive help system in the V3i didn't do much to curb the complaints. And many of those complaints came from dealers who were so uncomfortable with the detector they often wouldn't try to sell it*.

The issue is that the user always feels he is not getting peak performance unless all controls are optimized. So they feel the need to try to adjust everything, often for the worse. With 5 controls you couldn't get in too much trouble... with 50 controls trouble comes easy. Add to this that buyers of the V3 were often newbies who felt that if they are going to buy a metal detector then they should just go ahead and buy a top-of-the-line model and skip the learning stage.

The VX3 had a good solution that was never carried through. It is hardware-identical to a V3i but features were pared way back. But it actually has 3 more skill "levels" that can be activated with passwords, which incrementally add more features until it becomes a full-blown V3i. The idea was to sell these as e.g. $99 upgrades people would buy when they were ready. It was never offered.

But it does beg the question: If you could buy, say, an Equinox 600 today for $700 and later upgrade it to an 800 for an add'l $300 would you find that to be a distasteful business practice? I recently read that auto manufacturers are considering this, where you pay a la carte for options that are software-disabled even when the hardware is designed into the car. Surveys indicate that this would greatly annoy new car buyers. However, oscilloscopes are being sold this way now... you can buy a basic model and then upgrade the bandwidth or enable the signal generator or logic analyzer features later.

For a detector I'm thinking more like the VX3, where there are 4 levels, each of which offer a several new features that are progressively more advanced. The incremental upgrade price would depend on the price of the base model and the corresponding advanced model but, for argument, let's say $99 each and also say that a fully upgraded base model is just slightly more expensive than buying the top model from the start.

And, no, this is not a hint of anything FTP is considering. In fact, I'm certain they would not.

*At White's we were told, "If the dealer can't explain the feature, then we don't include it." I heard over & over "keep it dumb-dirt-simple." I still don't know how the V3 ever made it out the door.

Carl,

I love the fact that you brought the V3i into this discussion.  I had one and if memory serves me correctly I got it when there was a coil issue at White's.  My V3i had two bad coils.  When I finally got a good coil I did like the detector but like many I was overwhelmed by the number of settings/adjustments possible with the detector.  I recall at the time thinking that White's needed to pare the detector back for some users; I had no idea that the VX3 was in fact a reality.  I don't know that I would have gone along with the $99.00 upgrade idea but perhaps this concept could have been implemented in a manner similar to the old Coinmaster 1, 2 & 3 series.  Or maybe offering a V3I "dual" that would offer the two platforms in one unit.  All I know is that to this day no manufacturer has offered anything close to the V3i in terms of ingenuity.  It would be cool if Garrett brought the model back.  They should bring you on board to make sure it's done right!

Bill

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On 3/7/2022 at 9:01 AM, ☠ Cipher said:

It does seem that the V3i not being quite as popular as it could’ve been has caused many to throw the baby out with the bath water. Multifrequency spectrograph and multifrequency pinpoint were great ideas then and great ideas now, but when this was discussed with NM for example, they were reluctant to mimic anything about the V3i because of its reputation for complexity and feature “overload.” Another reason you may not ever see these features again is because metal detecting manufacturers would then have to get honest with us about how many simultaneous frequencies they are actually using. You can’t have 3 frequency spectrograph and pinpoint on a machine running 2 frequencies at a time, for example. But boy is that multifrequency pinpoint no motion effective in commingled sites. It made up for the slow recovery of the machine overall, and was actually an amazing tool for determining where one item ends, and another begins, as well as their composition. For those who love the V3i there has been and likely will be no equal anytime soon. I plan to keep mine alive as long as possible. 

The V3 had a lot of innovation and cutting edge features. It was the first detector with color display, the second with wireless headphones, had stereo mixed-mode audio, and features like the SpectraGraph, Live Controls, and fully customizable audio tones. But where it was lacking was raw performance. Steve is right, a lot of people dove deep into the settings looking for ways to improve performance. But it wasn't all because the V3 was set to a low bar, it was because it fundamentally didn't perform as well as, say, an MXT or an Explorer. Part of the shortcoming was in the analog design and the reason for that is because the guy who knew the most about it -- Mark Rowan -- was run out of the company.

In any case, there are a lot of cool features in the V3 that have yet to make it into another detector. We had a lot of other ideas that didn't make the V3 cut (the V4 was defined and started but didn't get far because all the players left White's) and I would love to design a new/better/high-performing V4 at some point. Ergo my curiosity about the acceptability of user levels.

On 3/7/2022 at 10:38 AM, GB_Amateur said:

Also there is no indication in that thread that Fisher/First Texas changed its tune about being able to turn off DST, but there certainly was skeptism that this was the case regardless of what First Texas said.  Would have been nice to hear it from the "horse's mouth" ('horse' being Dave Johnson) but I've seen nothing yet that has Dave's signature attached.

David didn't develop DST, John Gardiner did. I have no idea if 'off' really means 'off' but I'll try to find out.

On 3/7/2022 at 10:40 AM, Mike_Hillis said:

Hey Carl....any chance you know those passwords and key strokes to unlock the VX3?  :biggrin:   

Sorry, I would share it if I did. Update passwords were unique to each detector. White's had a PC utility where you type in the detector's serial number and it generated the passwords. That utility was lost, along with the one that would reset your personal password if you forgot it, or if you bought a used V3 and wanted to reset the owner info.

2 hours ago, Bill (S. CA) said:

It would be cool if Garrett brought the model back.  They should bring you on board to make sure it's done right!

That would be a tall order, with or without me. The V3 needs extensive redesign.

 

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On 3/6/2022 at 1:11 PM, Geotech said:

The V3 is a counter-argument to this. It had (almost) as many controls as possible but people complained bitterly that it was too complicated to use. Even though there was a simplified interface mode (the "6-block" menu screen) for newbies and the placement of advanced features in the aptly-named Expert menus. Even adding a full interactive help system in the V3i didn't do much to curb the complaints. And many of those complaints came from dealers who were so uncomfortable with the detector they often wouldn't try to sell it*.

The issue is that the user always feels he is not getting peak performance unless all controls are optimized. So they feel the need to try to adjust everything, often for the worse. With 5 controls you couldn't get in too much trouble... with 50 controls trouble comes easy. Add to this that buyers of the V3 were often newbies who felt that if they are going to buy a metal detector then they should just go ahead and buy a top-of-the-line model and skip the learning stage.

The VX3 had a good solution that was never carried through. It is hardware-identical to a V3i but features were pared way back. But it actually has 3 more skill "levels" that can be activated with passwords, which incrementally add more features until it becomes a full-blown V3i. The idea was to sell these as e.g. $99 upgrades people would buy when they were ready. It was never offered.

But it does beg the question: If you could buy, say, an Equinox 600 today for $700 and later upgrade it to an 800 for an add'l $300 would you find that to be a distasteful business practice? I recently read that auto manufacturers are considering this, where you pay a la carte for options that are software-disabled even when the hardware is designed into the car. Surveys indicate that this would greatly annoy new car buyers. However, oscilloscopes are being sold this way now... you can buy a basic model and then upgrade the bandwidth or enable the signal generator or logic analyzer features later.

For a detector I'm thinking more like the VX3, where there are 4 levels, each of which offer a several new features that are progressively more advanced. The incremental upgrade price would depend on the price of the base model and the corresponding advanced model but, for argument, let's say $99 each and also say that a fully upgraded base model is just slightly more expensive than buying the top model from the start.

And, no, this is not a hint of anything FTP is considering. In fact, I'm certain they would not.

*At White's we were told, "If the dealer can't explain the feature, then we don't include it." I heard over & over "keep it dumb-dirt-simple." I still don't know how the V3 ever made it out the door.

"Put as many controls on the unit as possible." I wrote that with a tiny bit of sarcasm 😄 but generally meant it. Not that I want to see a cluttered up machine or screen or have to get a college degree just to use it, but to highlight what happens when trends start in the manufacturing industry. One manufacturer does a turn on and go machine and they all follow. That is a dangerous thing to buy into, if you are and avid detectorists. If I go cheap (for the new technology) I will be disappointed in the lack of controls, but if I wait, I lose the chance to try something new and possibly beneficial to my type of hunting. I'm getting the feeling that a turn and go machine is what they want beginners to get, while a mid priced machine is what gives me the options that I usually want, and recently the high end stuff is extremely focused on one task (like the GPX 6000). You can't go by lineage anymore since the GPX 6000 is nothing like the GPX 5000.  Carl, I was actually very interested when White's announced the Vision was coming. I saved up for it, since I had been with Whites since the CMV Supreme days. But legal delays and my attention span being short, I opted to try a Minelab and never looked back. I wish the V3 would have been available, but not under powered. I would have love the ability to explore the different (and sometimes unorthodox) combinations that might arise. I think it would have been a great park machine. I guess I don't understand the view of a manufacturer that doesn't want to make a machine that has beginners as well as advanced users talking about how great it is. To me it's simple, just leave a note to beginners telling them to use the expert menu at their own risk. Then just show them the factory reset button 😄 Problem solved.

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I would never exchange the Spectra V3 for its simplified version of the Spectra VX3 ....

Specta VX3 is missing 2 important settings,
  .. the first setting is TX Bost ....
  TX bost is the most important setting .... in terms of depth of detection ... especially when using 3F multifrequency .. then release release Tiger from the cage ....

Because the Spectra V3 on TX "normal" has a very soft 3F multifrevention range.

Another very important thing when turning on the TX bost is the higher resistance of the detector against EMI.....2.5 amps TX on the coil .. will do its job here ....:smile:..
.
..The second important setting is 8 Ground filters // 5hz, 7.5hz, 10hz, 12.5hz Band or High Ground filter // which is actually the recovery speed of more modern detectors ../ compared to 2 Ground filters / 5hz and 12.5hz Band type which has VX3 ...

  .. on many medium mineralized terrains 5hz will not work reliably ,,, and again 12.5 hz band Ground filter will again be relatively weaker in range ... - especially on the standard 10 "DD  coil...

As for the difficulty of the Spectra V3 - for settings .. in fact, you only change 5 important settings there - just like with other modern detectors ...👍

 

however, it is good to say that since the inception of Spectra, many current detectors have gained some detection capabilities ... significantly further ... it is mainly that the manufacturers have not been in place and in the meantime have improved detection technology for their new detectors ...

 

In the picture there is a certain part of my detectors .... / except my colleague Fisher CZ 6, and 1 Rutus Atrex / .. and some have more settings other detectors have only a few settings ... but they are all great detectors ...

IMG_20210913_111236.jpg

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