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The Truth About Separation!


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2 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I've been asking myself that question.  What % of targets missed by the Eqx 800 (not missed because of detectorist limitations but detector+coil limitations) justifies spending $1600 for a Deus 2?  10% is definitely at the low end, maybe too low.  20% would, for my $, be worth the investment.

Now, if the Legend at $630 beats the Equinox at the 10% level it's an easier buy decision.

But it's still a decision that depends upon the specific detectorist's skill level, not just the price.  I have little doubt that there are detectorists who could follow my footsteps with the right 20th Century detector+coil and find another 10+%, at least in some (especially trashy) sites I've detected.

Idk what percent a factual,reality based situation of mine could add to but I'll tell 2. One old yard 30yds by same give or take with 2 story house in middle from mid 1800's I know atpro 10hrs+,multikruzer 7,8hrs,nox800 4/5 trips 4hrs to 7 last trip being zero non ferrous 2 way signals. 1 trip D2 first hunt with it 8 non ferrous digs with several square nails or bits per hole.

      Civil war fort 50yds long 30ish wide me and a buddy have spent 100+ hours on with same no signals left with nox between last 2 trips 8,9hrs I only dug 3 bullets going back and forth all directions. 

     D2 in roughly 10hrs I dug 8/12 bullets idk as I gave owners grandson some and a coworker,2 buttons"long time since a button came up",14 canister shot,piece of cannonball,period fork,finial and these were 2 way solid I havent begun to scratch the iffys I would knowingly dig iffy bullet or button with nox I just dont know D2 iffy sigs yet! Honest as I can tell it,there is a significant advantage to be had over nox and I love the nox and wont sell it but wont grab it either!  Btw 2inches of a gallon ziplock full of nails iron from those 10hrs of desirable finds holes not chasing iron as what I see unless flat pieces iron doesnt give solid repeatable 2 ways non desired iron that is.

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9 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I've been asking myself that question.  What % of targets missed by the Eqx 800 (not missed because of detectorist limitations but detector+coil limitations) justifies spending $1600 for a Deus 2?  10% is definitely at the low end, maybe too low.  20% would, for my $, be worth the investment.

Now, if the Legend at $630 beats the Equinox at the 10% level it's an easier buy decision.

But it's still a decision that depends upon the specific detectorist's skill level, not just the price.  I have little doubt that there are detectorists who could follow my footsteps with the right 20th Century detector+coil and find another 10+%, at least in some (especially trashy) sites I've detected.

GB_Amateur.....

.... to find other good targets .. on heavily detected terrain .... you need a detector with exceptionally good separation .... or exceptional depth of detection .... because detectors with average separation have detected this terrain for.... many years .. ..

If the terrain is contaminated with iron waste ..... there is a very good chance that many good targets are still masked by iron ....,
...find out very quickly on plowed ground ... where after each plowing you can still find good targets .... even with an average separating detector .... but a well separating detector can still find more targets here ..

If .... we come to detect undisturbed soil .... the situation changes quickly ..... and only a well-separating detector can unmask other targets ..... but also a detector with good separation and different coils in this the terrain still has some targets still unmasked ... even a few good targets still remain in the terrain ......

... in some cases, these may be exceptionally good targets....
 ... I found some gold coins..and in this case I still relied on the excellent separation properties of the detector + the right VDI .... I detected several of them ... even on different coils ../11", 8x9",and 7"DD coils/

...my advice ..... So if we want to successfully detect more ... we must finally use detectors .... with exceptionally good separation ... And you will certainly find other good targets ..

.... Now a little to 2Dand 3D separacion tests .... the main purpose of the separation test is to find the right setting of the detector for the best separation ... and then it feels to find the right sweeping coil/which is very important/....!!!

in my 3D depth separation tests .... 2 best separating dedectors plus coils / Atrex +7 "DDcoil and ORX 5.5 x 9 hf elliptical coil / achieve the best results ... where the separation limit is 9cm nail from the target ..!!!

I consider excellent detectors to be able to separate the nail from 9 cm..to 20 cm from the target ..... !!!

here I must note that it is one of the 4 separation tests that I use ... in another 3D test you can achieve better results on 9 "-11" coils...!!!

....several of my well-separating detectors in a 3D test on a small 14mm silver 0.5 gram j hammered coin at a depth of 11cm ..

 

 

.... use some of your olders detectors in the test ... and you will quickly find out why some targets in the field passed this detector ...
and vice versa ... find out that some older detectors also separate surprisingly well .. using the right coil ...

Gold coin... 1/1 Stater...IMG_20210920_085213_683.jpg

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I've been following this thread for a while and would like to add my 2c at this point. 🙂 My observations stem from live hunting only.

The Coiltek 10x5 was a great improvement for me after using the 11" on my Equinox for most of my hunts, I definitely found more items with it, returned with the 11" and found nothing else. I much question the claims that I am missing "deeper" targets with the 10x5, isn't 12" enough for a VLF and elliptical? 😀 I have proven that to myself quite a few times. I know physics is physics, but I also know that coil is phenomenal when paired with the 600 and I have it on good authority the same goes for the 800.

On now to the Deus 2 with the 9", where I have dug still more at these places, but not much more.

I did not buy i the D2 because I thought I would find more, my reason for buying it was twofold; I had the money and opportunity, and it is a higher level machine that is light as light can be. I have the Equinox 600 so it was a major leap ahead for me than the 800 or Legend would be. Bonus extreme water depth, and so far I really like hosing it off when I'm done for the day without concern. I'm a little more careful with the 600 🙄

I have some sites where the trash is so thick I wasn't able to find much at all, so there is a great test coming for the D2 in the fall. It may be tough however to determine whether the D2 is actually better at separation or if it just makes me not mind digging more junk out of the way which would certainly uncover more desirable stuff. 🤔 This seems to be more what people are writing here, but I do appreciate the "garden" testers for going out of their way. 👍 While garden testing will not always produce the same results as live hunting, it does help one make better decisions if done as close to reality as possible.

Maybe I'm Captain Obvious. 🤣

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On 5/7/2022 at 12:02 PM, GB_Amateur said:

I don't know what this sentence even means, but IMO it's unfair to make such a statement as it can be (and will be in some cases) considered a put down.  "If you dig iron thinking it's non-ferrous, there's something wrong with you."  (That's my interpretation of how some will take such a statement.  I doubt it was your intent, but still....)

I've been using an Equinox for four years, too, and I still dig nails I think might be coins.  They are iffy signals and I could ignore them.  But I've found coins which sounded worse than some of the nails I've dug, so I'm not going to give those up just to avoid digging a few nails.  Am I using the Equinox perfectly.  Of course not.  But I'm using it the best way I know how, for my conditions and especially for my goals, interests, and pain tolerance.

Everyone has his/her internal (i.e. in the brain) threshold of what to dig and what to skip over.  And that's 100% fine in my book.

When I first responded I was talking about dirt as I did not know the initial environment being talked about was the beach. I retract my statement as I have never hunted a beach.  Park1 and Park2 on dry land running F2 0 on very deep edge of detection targets in my dirt I don't dig if when I circle I get any negative numbers. I also don't want to see any numbers above 36 popping up either. I'm generally fine with the numbers bouncing upper teens to about lower 30's. I've dug Merc dimes 9"-10" in Park2. People say Park2 is not as deep as Park1, and may not be, but in my opinion Park2 gives better info on whats ferrous and what is not. In Park2 in my dirt with a good ground balance will not false on iron as bad as Park1 will. You can have a iffy target in Park1 and switch to Park2 and it generally starts iron grunting.

Have I ever passed up an iffy that was really a coin? Probably maybe, but once I saw a pattern on the really deep ones I quit digging certain targets that didn't meet the criteria. I did dig some at first that didn't meet the criteria and every one was iron. Honestly it's been awhile since I dug one of the really deep ones. I watched a video someone had done on in the wild really deep iffy silver, and I thought that's not very iffy to me. There is a fine line on when to dig and when to walk away on the type targets I'm describing. Like you said we all have our threshold on when to walk away and when to go for it.     

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Target Id's are nothing more than probability indications.  So many things throw them off, depth being the most obvious.  I love Target ID's so much and use them all the time, it's no exact science, I learnt long ago not to trust them, anyone who hunts for gold nuggets knows exactly how bad discrimination can be on difficult targets, deep or masked coins are difficult targets.

If you don't dig negative numbers prospecting you're missing a hell of a lot of gold.  I translate that to a deep gold coin is going to show as negative numbers, and who knows whatever other great targets will behave the same.

It's always a decision you have to make, never be confident negative numbers are iron on a deep target.

In deep coin hunting the probability of very low negative numbers being iron is likely quite high as there is obviously a lot more deep iron than there would be deep good targets, but it's still a decision you're making to avoid deep good targets as you don't want to dig deep iron.

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12 hours ago, phrunt said:

Target Id's are nothing more than probability indications.  So many things throw them off, depth being the most obvious.  I love Target ID's so much and use them all the time, it's no exact science, I learnt long ago not to trust them, anyone who hunts for gold nuggets knows exactly how bad discrimination can be on difficult targets, deep or masked coins are difficult targets.

Well stated.  Mineralization is another big impediment for accurate target ID's, and in my experience that typically exhibits itself with depth.  I.e. shallow targets give the same or close to the same VDI's as air testing does.  But as good targets get deeper their signals weaken whereas ground noise doesn't ==> signal to noise ratio worsens, leading at best to bouncy VDI's and at worst (particularly on single frequency detectors in mineralized ground) wraparound (to iron VDI's).

This thread topic is separation, and even for the top multifrquency detectors (well, the Equinox anyway, the one I've used), that is a big gotcha.  It's pretty easy to get a good VDI for a not-too-deep coin with nothing nearby.  Add some trash, espeically iron, and that goes away.  The effect exhibits itself in many ways, e.g. averaging the VDI of the trash and coin, all the way to masking the coin's VDI completely and only indicating ferrous.

When I see people tell beginners "walk all the way around a target and if it doesn't give a good VDI all the way around, it's trash."  Again, if there is no other target nearby then a ferrous indication one or more directions can be an indication of a nail or other ferrous target, alone.  But I've multiple times had a nail near a coin and have the coin give a good VDI when the coil was swung one direction whereas even 45 degrees (1/8 of the full circle) both directions (clockwise and counterclockwise) it sounds off as ferrous.

Orientation of a nail seems to make a huge difference, also, even for a lone nail.  Air testing exhibits this.  When the nail is oriented perpedicular to the coil plane (e.g. vertical for typical coi orientation when sweeping the ground) it can sound really good, and that isn't just for nails with heads oriented up.  Even finishing nails (i.e. headless) can give sweet signals when vertical.  There may be some audio tells (such as broadening -- I don't mean ferrous sounds), and possibly some detector+coil combos are better than others at giving a tell, but I've certainly dug a lot of vertical nails I was really thinking were going to be coins, and that's with the Equinox as well as single frequency detector+DD coil.

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