Running The 15" Cc X Coil Over A 6000 Patch

[Norvic]

16 minutes ago, Aureous said:

NV, I'm just quoting what they told Simon. They prefer to let others gamble with making the adapters. The coils themselves are no different to earlier GPX coils, same inductance, same resistance values...plus same design and winding parameters. So, the crucial thing is to safely and efficiently build an adapter, not the coil.

Yeah again from experience I know a wee bit about adapters as I built the two adaptors I have by simply following X coils instructions and I`m prepared to "gamble" on X coils ability and expertise to get inductance, resistance and other parameters correct thus hope they make a CC coil for my 6K. To me it is no gamble as the fruit is worth the effort but I understand that`s not every bodies cup of tea.

[jasong]

10 hours ago, Aureous said:

Is everyone forgetting that Detech makes an 18" and a 24" CC coil for GPX?? I am going to get an adapter made up and start trialing the old coils plus an 18" CC.

The key, I think, would be finding an existing CC that is more or less the same size as one of the existing 6000 mono coils, so performance could be directly compared. We already know larger coils go deeper on PI's, the question we need answered is wether a concentric goes deeper than the same size mono of current 6000 design (we aren't sure yet if it's better or worse in some ways than older GPX monos), and on which sizes of gold if so. How it deals with ground and EMI comparitively speaking to a similar size mono would also be of great interest.

(edit: or thinking about it more logically, you could also just compare one of the old 11" mono Commanders to to the 11" 6000 mono, both on the 6000, to create a baseline comparison between old monos and whatever performance changes these newer 6000 monos might have too).

Were there ever any CC's made for GPX's that were around the same size as the 11" and 17" elliptical on the 6000 by any chance? Would be cool if someone had one sitting in their closet they wanted to sell.

Also I'm curious: with a PI there will only be 2 windings on a concentric instead of 3 like with the GPZ. What are the reasons/advantages of putting the TX on the outside vs the RX on the outside? I think I might try to wind one of my own coils this fall after I get my house fixed and sold and a bit more time on my hands for prospecting. I have an old 4500 I can start with to test it so I don't make a mistake with a more expensive machine.

[phrunt]

5 hours ago, Aureous said:

NV, I'm just quoting what they told Simon. They prefer to let others gamble with making the adapters. The coils themselves are no different to earlier GPX coils, same inductance, same resistance values...plus same design and winding parameters. So, the crucial thing is to safely and efficiently build an adapter, not the coil.

No I didn't say that, I said they're not going to make GPX coils at this time not what the reason was,  It's nothing to do with the adapters and they've got their guy in Australia willing to make everyone's adapter there which is the biggest market for X-coils outside of their own region, it's no different to the GPZ situation except GPX coils are a lot cheaper.  It's the shipping costs making it too difficult to do them at this stage, when the shipping costs a large part of the cost of a coil it's just not viable.  The instructions for a GPX adapter will never be public, that was a mistake with the GPZ letting people make their own adapters, that'll never happen again and largely stopped with the GPZ a long time ago now and there has been absolutely no adapter problems with ones that have done it the proper route since.

You can't throw someones coil on a ship and have them wait 3 months for it, it has to be done express on planes.

Someone in Australia who buys a NF coil has some small domestic shipping fee to get their coil, X-coils have a long haul express flight to take which costs many hundreds and increases the bigger the coil size and weight.  Hard to compete in that situation on a lower cost coil even if the coils are significantly better which would not be a surprise but shipping still makes it hard.  You'll note they discontinued their older model GPX coils for the same reason, they were very popular and just plug and play but shipping made them no longer viable.

Events like the pandemic and the war have only make these shipping problems worse.  It's not that they don't want to provide people their coils, it's just too hard.  The best solution is time, maybe if people buy the other coils and X-coils come along and release coils that are significantly better then the higher price will be justified, or shipping may start to settle down to pre-pandemic pricing then all bets are off.

To think they won't be looking into Concentric coils and all types of windings would be foolish.  If there are Minelab restrictions on the other manufacturers with the coils they can make then X-coils will have a big advantage once again.

[jasong]

4 minutes ago, phrunt said:

To think they won't be looking into Concentric coils and all types of windings would be foolish.  If there are Minelab restrictions on the other manufacturers with the coils they can make then X-coils will have a big advantage once again.

Ok, now you are confusing me again. I asked in the other thread before I posted this thread if there might be any performance gains with concentrics on the 6000. And your response was something like "haven't people noticed what coils X Coils did and didn't decide to actually make for the 6000"? None of which included concentrics. The inferrence I took from that being they already looked into concentrics for the 6000 and decided they weren't worth making.

I can't remember the exact verbiage, but seemed to me that was the gist of things. But now it seems like you are saying they think they might look into them?

I'm lost.

[phrunt]

Just now, jasong said:

Ok, now you are confusing me again. I asked in the other thread before I posted this thread if there might be any performance gains with concentrics on the 6000. And your response was something like "haven't people noticed what coils X Coils did and didn't decide to actually make for the 6000"? None of which included concentrics. The inferrence I took from that being they already looked into concentrics for the 6000 and decided they weren't worth making.

I can't remember the exact verbiage, but seemed to me that was the gist of things. But now it seems like you are saying they think they might look into them?

I'm lost.

That was because so far all coils they've made and completed are small monos and my comment was related to larger size coils for the GPX like 17" round and up, not so much Concentrics.  After seeing the demand for Concentrics then perhaps it's worth looking into? 🙂 

Note all manufacturers have stuck with smaller size coils for it, even though typically in Australia people seem to like 17" round and larger on the GPZ.

[jasong]

A big positive of the 6000 is it's light weight and balance, so I don't see a huge market for anything bigger than an 18" on it anyways, or you'd just use the GPZ instead if things are already getting heavy and inconvenient. 

I'm actually pretty happy with the 11" mono other than depth related issues. I don't really need to find anything smaller than the 0.03g stuff I'm already finding. The weight is fine to swing all day. What I think the 6000 needs is a bit more depth out of a coil that isn't much heavier, on the 1/2+ gram stuff, to make it a more well rounded machine in general. Something like a 12" concentric, if such a coil would go appreciably deeper than the 11" mono on the slightly bigger stuff while simultaneously not being much heavier than the 11" (of course we have extra winding weight) then it seems like the 6000 becomes a much more capable detector for general use. I'm looking at it in terms of a main coil replacement, a new primary coil.

Or, conversely, if a smaller concentric like a 8-9" could get as much depth as the 11" mono but be lighter weight to swing, then that might have a market too as a main coil replacement for those who want added maneuverability without losing depth from stock.

I think big coils would probably max out around 16" or 18" for usability on the 6000 in specific. But it might be good to have one in that range too, for situations that require them. Depending on weight, it'd probably still be better than using the GPZ, even if it wasn't outright as deep. 

The main problem I see with the 6000 (aside from EMI and the speaker) that needs addressed is that it definitely does leave a lot more stuff than I would like in the ground. It's close, but not quite good enough to be an "only" detector for many people. If it was just a bit better then I might even be tempted to sell my GPZ because my elbow is not getting any better.

[GR Guy]

JasonG - apart from the 6 not having the depth against the Zed, interested in your comment that you feel it’s leaving stuff in the ground. What do you consider are it’s limitations?

[jasong]

Well GR guy, it's a day of coincidences haha because I just happened to be finishing typing up the post below right when you posted, this might answer your question a bit?

3 minutes ago, GR Guy said:

JasonG - apart from the 6 not having the depth against the Zed, interested in your comment that you feel it’s leaving stuff in the ground. What do you consider are it’s limitations?

Not to change subjects, but for what it's worth I decided to go dig my test patch up earlier today. It's out behind a mountain near town and the entire area is being turned into a weekend shooting range and getting absolutely covered with piles of ammunition debris and other trash now, creeping closer and closer to my test patch every year, so it's not much use to me anymore after they shoot it up.

I made this patch when I got my first 12" and 17" spiral X Coils, so I could compare targets. I dug holes with each nugget until the stock coil just barely no longer made a signal, then buried them. The ground is almost totally inert with very little salt and iron component. The nuggets (by memory) are 1/4 gram, 3/4 gram, 1.5 gram, 3 gram, and 7 gram. Not sure of their exact depth, just that whatever depth they are at is where the stock 14x13 coil stopped hearing them. The 12 and 17" spirals both heard all the nuggets, no problem. But that's not surprise.

Anyways, I knew I wasn't going to hit the bigger ones with the 6000, but I was pretty sure I'd get at least the 1/4 grammer to some extent, it wasn't really very deep. 

Not a peep from a single nugget though from the 6000. So I think the GPZ even with the stock coil is outperforming the 6000 over almost all classes of nuggets. Other than maybe 0.1 gram and under or something. This here is another recent reason why I just really think the 6000 needs a bit better performance, it's good, but not quite good enough to be an only detector. But if a good coil can boost it's performance at least a bit without digging into weight, it would sure give me a lot more confidence in the machine when I'm exploring, as it definitely seems to be missing some fairly shallow stuff that I would have otherwise assumed it was tagging with ease.

[phrunt]

This is how I see it.

.

🙂

[GR Guy]

24 minutes ago, jasong said:

Well GR guy, it's a day of coincidences haha because I just happened to be finishing typing up the post below right when you posted, this might answer your question a bit?

Not to change subjects, but for what it's worth I decided to go dig my test patch up earlier today. It's out behind a mountain near town and the entire area is being turned into a weekend shooting range and getting absolutely covered with piles of ammunition debris and other trash now, creeping closer and closer to my test patch every year, so it's not much use to me anymore after they shoot it up.

I made this patch when I got my first 12" and 17" spiral X Coils, so I could compare targets. I dug holes with each nugget until the stock coil just barely no longer made a signal, then buried them. The ground is almost totally inert with very little salt and iron component. The nuggets (by memory) are 1/4 gram, 3/4 gram, 1.5 gram, 3 gram, and 7 gram. Not sure of their exact depth, just that whatever depth they are at is where the stock 14x13 coil stopped hearing them. The 12 and 17" spirals both heard all the nuggets, no problem. But that's not surprise.

Anyways, I knew I wasn't going to hit the bigger ones with the 6000, but I was pretty sure I'd get at least the 1/4 grammer to some extent, it wasn't really very deep. 

Not a peep from a single nugget though from the 6000. So I think the GPZ even with the stock coil is outperforming the 6000 over almost all classes of nuggets. Other than maybe 0.1 gram and under or something. This here is another recent reason why I just really think the 6000 needs a bit better performance, it's good, but not quite good enough to be an only detector. But if a good coil can boost it's performance at least a bit without digging into weight, it would sure give me a lot more confidence in the machine when I'm exploring, as it definitely seems to be missing some fairly shallow stuff that I would have otherwise assumed it was tagging with ease.

Must admit my experiences with the 6 compared with the Zed and 45 have been different to yours. I can only remember once having a ghost signal on a 1g at about 8” against the Zed with the 12” coil. Appreciate the feedback.