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New Minelab Manticore


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5 minutes ago, longbow62 said:

I don't deny units leaked. I have know idea the percentage. I do know the internet can greatly blow things far out of proportion to what the reality actually is. Again they are still selling them as waterproof to 10ft. despite all you hear about leaking. It kinda makes no sense for them to that if in fact that many are actually leaking.      

They sold the GPX 6000 for over a year with a speaker/EMI problem, just kept pumping them out. They sold the coils with weak ears for the CTX for a decade then used the same ears on the Nox, I'm at a loss why.   I guess producing a new product and changing production costs far more than replacing detectors and coils.  Let's face it they probably spend $100 to make a Nox in Malaysia if that, cheaper to swap out faulty ones than redesign it and all the costs associated with that.  Maybe that's why they put up the price of the Nox, to cover replacing it if need be without eating into their existing profits 🙂

 

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On 10/9/2022 at 5:19 PM, longbow62 said:

Well for one thing if the 2-d screen works as advertised falsing iron targets should become obvious without circling targets. 

I wouldn't count on that.  My experience with the CTX says that if you have a nail that is a mix of iron tones, and also a bunch of high-tone "falses" that somewhat mimic a coin-type target. you will get a trace for both of those tonal indications.  In other words, the target trace would be such that it would look kind of like there are two targets under your coil -- iron target, and coin-type target.  Reason being, if the ID algorithms are "fooled" into giving you a coin-like high-tone, then (at least with the CTX) the target trace algorithm is likewise fooled.  I don't think you can expect to be hearing both high tones and iron tones, but ONLY see an iron trace on the 2D screen.

Unless they have some real magic going on with the Manticore that STOPS the nails from high-tone falsing, then I would expect any high-tone falses to "trace" on the target trace screen along the "good target" line (in addition to the trace in the iron range consistent with the iron tones that would be occurring due to it being an iron target).

Steve

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I’m waiting for the holographic version which gives us a 3D view from all sides of what’s underground. A HoloManticoreGram version.  🤣

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Yes, I'm worried that it could leak like the Equinox. I haven't heard anything about it having better waterproofing. Also concerned about the high tone falsing in iron. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

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4 hours ago, Rick N. MI said:

Yes, I'm worried that it could leak like the Equinox. I haven't heard anything about it having better waterproofing. Also concerned about the high tone falsing in iron. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

This time they've gone the certification route, it's IP68, previously they did their own testing for waterproofing in a kids inflatable paddling pool at the back of the Minelab office in SA.  This new certification on the Mandible would be to give customers more confidence it is not a leaker and because of the leaking issues they really had to do it.

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I’m going to pass on this release. I just don’t see any real advantage over the machines I already have. Maybe, a year after release, if the reviews are glowing, I would consider picking one up on a dealer discount.

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17 hours ago, steveg said:

I wouldn't count on that.  My experience with the CTX says that if you have a nail that is a mix of iron tones, and also a b unch of high-tone "falses" that somewhat mimic a coin-type target. you will get a trace for both of those tonal indications.  In other words, the target trace would be sucha that it would look kind of like there are two targets under your coil -- iron target, and coin-type target.  In other words, if the ID algorithms are "fooled" into giving you a coin-like high-tone, then (at least with the CTX) the target trace algorithm is likewise fooled.  I don't think you can expect to be hearing both high tones and iron tones, but ONLY see an iron trace on the 2D screen.

Unless they have some real magic going on with the Manticore that STOPS the nails from high-tone falsing, then I would expect any high-tone falses to "trace" on the target trace screen along the "good target" line (in addition to the trace in the iron range consistent with the iron tones that would be occurring due to it being an iron target).

Steve

I don't know this for a fact so don't take it as gospel, but I though in one video it showed them swing over a nail alone and it was a smear on the ferrous line. Then they swung over a coin and it was a round circle on the non-ferrous line. Then both and it showed both items still on there perspective lines. Center line round coin, and above it smeared iron. Maybe I'm dreaming but that's what I think I remember seeing. Falsing iron I thought they also covered in a piece of iron high toning, but it was still on the ferrous range/line. Again as I've suggested a nice professionally done Minelab produced video explaining things would help immensely.

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longbow,

Yes, that is correct.  You probably did see that.  But, the KEY, and the CAVEAT, is THIS -- the targets (if you want their traces to show up in their "proper" places on the 2D screen) must be identified correctly by the machine's ID algorithms, in order for them to show up in the proper place on the screen.

Consider four scenarios...

Scenario 1, you are using a CTX, and you have both a nail and a coin, sitting adjacent to one another.  And let's assume that the nail is IDing ENTIRELY as a nail -- i.e. the machine correctly identifies it as an ENTIRELY iron target, and reports it entirely with iron ID.  And let's also assume that the machine is correctly, solidly IDing the coin as a high conductor.  In that case, then what you said is correct.  You will see two targets -- a round-ish target on the center line (the coin), and a more "oddly shaped" or "smeared" target in the "iron area" of the screen (the nail).

Scenario 2, you are using a CTX and you have both a nail and a coin, sitting adjacent to one another.  And let's assume that the nail is IDing PARTLY as iron, but PARTLY as a high conductor (i.e. you are hearing a mix of high tones and iron tones).  And let's also assume that the machine is correctly, solidly IDing the coin as a high conductor.  In THIS case, you would probably see some semblance of THREE targets -- the coin, on the center line, and then one trace clustered up in the "iron area" (representing the sweeps of the coil where the machine is correctly IDing the nail as "iron"), and then another trace clustered near the center line (somewhere in the vicinity of the coin's trace) that is representing the sweeps of the coil where the machine was reporting the nail as a high conductor.

Scenario 3, you are using a CTX and you have ONLY a nail under the coil, and the nail is being ID'd ENTIRELY as a nail -- no high-tone falses.  In this case, you will see a single, somewhat non-round target or "smeared" trace in the "iron area" of the 2D screen.

Scenario 4, you are using a CTX and you have ONLY a nail under the coil, but the nail is IDing PARTLY as iron, but PARTLY as a high conductor.  (i.e. you are hearing a mix of high tones and iron tones).  In THIS case, you would see some semblance of TWO targets -- one trace clustered up in the "iron area" (representing the sweeps of the coil where the machine is correctly IDing the nail as "iron"), and then another trace clustered near the center line that is representing the sweeps of the coil where the machine was incorrectly reporting the nail as a high conductor.

Does this make sense?  In reality, what you would see is more complex, especially in scenario 3 and 4.  Reason being, we all know that the ID of a rusty nail "jumps around" alot; even if not into the high tone range at times, the ID still "jumps around."  Well, this "jumping around" of the ID corresponds to the "smeared" target trace you mentioned in your post. 

The important thing to keep in mind, to understand target trace, is this (assuming the M-Core target trace works essentially the same as the CTX)...

...all that target trace is, is a visual plot of what your ears are hearing (again, this is assuming that the M-Core target trace is very similar to the CTX target trace, and I feel reasonably confident that it is).  

Each ID of your target, on the CTX, and also on the M-Core, is broken into a conductive number, and a ferrous number.  On the M-Core screen, you are ONLY seeing the conductive number; on the CTX and other FBS units you see both numbers (except on the Safari, where you only see the conductive number, but I digress).   Anyway, the point is, in the BACKGROUND of the M-Core, both numbers are being calculated.  And so, let's say a quarter IDs on M-Core as "90."  That's the CONDUCTIVE number.  But, there is a Ferrous number also being calculated -- so let's just call it "12."  So, in the background, the quarter is IDing as 12-90.  And so, if you think of the 2D screen as simply an x,y coordinate system, with conductive ID being the x-axis, and ferrous ID being the y-axis, then that quarter's 12-90 ID is simply an x,y coordinate pair, that can now be plotted on an x,y coordinate system -- and again, that's what the "2D screen" is.  So, if you plot your ID point in the location that corresponds to 12 on your y-axis, and 90 on your x-axis, you have just plotted the quarter, on the 2D screen.  And as you continue to pass the coil over your quarter, and get more 12-90 ID's, your machine will continue to add more 12-90 points on the 2D screen.  If you get a slight variance of the ID on some sweeps (which of course you do), i.e. you get an 11-90, or a 12-91 ID, on some sweeps, those will plot, also.  That's why the trace "grows" a bit, with time, the more sweeps of the coil you make. 

SO -- a target that is ID'd accurately by the machine, with little variance in ID from sweep to sweep, will produce a small target trace; meanwhile, a target -- like a nail -- that IDs kind of "all over the place," will make a SMEARED target trace.  Again, the important thing to keep in mind is that all the target trace shows, are each of the ID "readings" that the machine is taking, of the target you are sweeping, plotted on the 2D screen (the x,y coordinate system). 

AND SO -- to sum this all up, the only way (assuming I am right about the M-Core and CTX target traces being very similar) that you will see the nail SOLIDLY in the "iron" area of the screen, consistently and entirely, is IF THE MACHINE IS CONSISTENTLY AND ENTIRELY ID-ing THE NAIL AS IRON.  If however, the machine erroneously reports, on some sweeps, a "coin-like" ID for the nail, then that "coin-like" ID will be shown in a "coin-type" location on the 2D screen.  And hence, the nail would show up as kind of "two targets" -- one clustering of IDs in a "coin-type" location, and one clustering of IDs in an "iron-type" location, due to some sweeps IDing the nail as iron, and some sweeps IDing it as a high conductor.

Hopefully, this makes sense; sorry about the wordiness, but if you have never experienced a FE-CO target ID, and a "smart screen," then it's a concept that takes some getting used to, and I don't know of a succinct, non-wordy way to describe it.  My apologies.

Steve

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To make things more interesting is the new polyphonic audio.  Separate audio scales for the X and Y axis. So now i will have the audio and visual X-Y axis indicators to sort out multiple targets. 

 

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Right now if I was going to spend that money I think I’d get a Tarsacci.  MDT 8000.

Not saying the manticore won’t be a excellent detector, I’d like to see some of them out in the field, live digs and such first.

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