New Minelab Manticore

[phrunt]

I think you'd be surprised how useful Target Trace is, it's fantastic on the CTX and that's a decade old detector now so I can only hope they've improved it even further.  In my soils here Multi-IQ was brilliant for ID stability and depth and with them hinting the Manticore has some depth advantages and more stable ID's than the Nox I'm expecting really good things with it's version of Target Trace. 

I like just about everything about the Manticore, with the only concern I have being the battery life, especially if I go prospecting with it, it just won't last the full day.  I might be able to tweak it up a bit to last longer, disable the back light and so on to give it a bit more juice, perhaps plug it into a USB power bank while I stop for lunch.   Higher frequencies like used prospecting tend to use less battery power too.

They're hinting at better EMI immunity too, although I've seen no evidence of that yet, in all the videos I've seen it's behaved similar to how the Nox would in that situation I think, but time will tell. 

If you are capable of using your Nox with 50 tones, you already have target trace, your brain just has to decipher it and some people are capable of doing that, for me I can't go past 5 tones so I benefit greatly from the visuals target trace provides. 🙂

I thought the Nox was near the perfect machine with the build quality being it's only downfall.  It got to the point with mine the only ML parts were the pod and the coil, and not always even the coil so I avoided much of the problems.  That and I just wasn't brave enough to use it in water much.    The Manticore designers took notice of the Nox faults, aren't shy of admitting them in the Manticore videos and have said it won't have those problems, so for me, it might be my perfect VLF.

[Chesroy]

2 hours ago, strick said:

Well then just use your Equinox...why bother with the Beast? 

strick 

Because we are being told it is an improvement on the Equinox. More TID numbers and poly something or other sounds enabling you to hear dual target responses. So the machine is not all about 2d mapping. If it is then yes the nox is good enough for me no problems with that

[steveg]

3 hours ago, phrunt said:

I think you'd be surprised how useful Target Trace is, it's fantastic on the CTX and that's a decade old detector now so I can only hope they've improved it even further.  In my soils here Multi-IQ was brilliant for ID stability and depth and with them hinting the Manticore has some depth advantages and more stable ID's than the Nox I'm expecting really good things with it's version of Target Trace.

phrunt -- if you wrote this part in response to Chesroy's post, I agree with you, and was wanting to say some of the same things.  Chesroy, don't write it off, before you give it a chance.  First off, I'm not sure why having it there, even if you NEVER look at it, is a negative; you'll still have your "legacy" VDI number to look at, same as on your Equinox.  BUT, with that said, there is information available in target trace that -- while arguably "there," in the tones -- is easier sometimes to comprehend/interpret when you see it on a screen.  Give it a chance; I think you may be surprised.

3 hours ago, phrunt said:

If you are capable of using your Nox with 50 tones, you already have target trace, your brain just has to decipher it and some people are capable of doing that, for me I can't go past 5 tones so I benefit greatly from the visuals target trace provides. 🙂

This is true, to a large degree, but I want to add a nuance.  Phrunt, you already know this, as a CTX user, but many who have never used FBS do not. 

For years, the Minelab Explorer (FBS) was my detector of choice.  Like other FBS machines, every target detected by an Explorer would be assigned two numbers (mathematically, an x,y coordinate pair) -- an FE and a CO number.  So, along those lines, each target would likewise be assigned a place on the 2-D screen (mathematically, an x,y coordinate system).  IN GENERAL, on an Explorer, a U.S. milled coin hunter would be looking for targets with a LOW FE number, and a HIGH CO number.  There are some exceptions, but let's just go with that for illustration.  SO, in general, low FE number and high CO number was indicative of a coin-type target, while HIGH FE number and high CO number would be an iron target, like a nail.  SO -- for instance -- a dime would read roughly 03-29 on an Explorer, while a nail might ready 25-29.  

The reason I am explaining all of this, is as follows.  On an FBS machine, one could set up their tones to "cue off of," or "align with," EITHER the FE numbers, or the CO numbers.  Think about that for a minute.  We are ALL used to our tones "cuing off of" the "conductive" number, because that's essentially what we have, to some degree, on most machines.  Low tones (low conductive numbers) and high tones (high conductive numbers).  So, likewise, on an Explorer, one could use a tone profile called "conductive tones," and this was much like a "regular" machine -- the higher the CO number, the higher the conductor.  Meanwhile, though, one could alternatively use a tone profile called "ferrous tones."  Using THIS profile, a low ferrous number was assigned a high tone, while a higher ferrous number was assigned a lower tone.  SO -- if you were a coin hunter, running in "ferrous tones," you would still want to listen, generally, for "high tones" (which, using "ferrous tones," would mean that those high tones would be associated with a low FE number).   So, with either tonal profile -- conductive tones or ferrous tones -- a coin hunter would prefer to hear high tones, but with the nuance being that you'd either be deciphering CONDUCTIVE information, or FERROUS information.  There were some advantages to using ferrous tones, over conductive tones, but I won't get into that now.  What is important is to just wrap your mind around this, for the sake of what I'm working to illustrate.

So, if that makes sense, then one thing that is important to see, is this.  If you were running conductive tones, ALL of the "direct" information you would get from the tones (how high or how low the tone might be) was related ENTIRELY to the "conductivity" of the target.  In other words, you'd get NO "direct" information about the ferrous side of things, through your tones.  Now, I say "direct," because of course there would still be "nuance" in the tones, that might hint at something non-round, or even "irony," but that's more "indirect."  Directly, though, when running conductive tones, what you are hearing, tonally, is CONDUCTIVE information.  WHICH MEANS, then, that in order to get FERROUS information, you HAD TO LOOK AT THE SCREEN.  In doing so, you would THEN be given the FE information also -- either as a numerical readout, OR, on your 2-D screen.  And this is IMPORTANT to understand.  Because on the Explorer, simply LISTENING to the tones, was not giving you the "full picture," directly.  BUT -- visually, seeing the FE number, OR, alternatively, the POSITION of the target on the 2D screen (which thus includes the ferrous ID information), would give you much more information about the target.

And my point here in all of this wordiness IS -- I expect this to be very similar on the Manticore.  I am nearly sure there is no way on the Manticore to set the VDI to show both an FE and a CO number.  BUT -- this FE information WILL be there, on the 2D screen.  SO -- if you have the machine set such that the tones are tied to the conductive number (which I expect will be the default on the Manticore), there WILL be additional information -- i.e. FERROUS information -- that can be gleaned DIRECTLY, from a VISUAL perspective -- i.e. by looking at the location of the plot of the target on the 2D screen.  OF COURSE those of us who have used the Equinox have learned to "glean" information from the tones, and the tonal behavior, that indicate that even a high-toning target may likely be a nail, BUT, with the 2D screen, you will be able to see some of this visually, and more "directly."  Again, this is due to the fact that each target's FE characteristics can be seen clearly on the screen, based on where the target plot is located in 2-D space.  And with a big focus on the Manticore apparently being its IRON resolution, and presumably, iron ID accuracy, this should really prove to be beneficial -- as we'll have a grapical representation of whatever iron information the machine is able to convey.  YES, our ears will be hearing the usual hints and indications that a high-toning target, such as a "falsing nail," may be iron, but visually, seeing the machine's read of a target's FE characteristics DIRECTLY PLOTTED, on the 2D screen, should assist in determining more accurately whether the target is a "good" high tone, or is more likely to be a nail masquerading as a coin...

Steve

[PSPR]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but the battery life of the Manticore on the Minelab website specs has been changed from 9 hours to 10 hours.  I guess 9 hours sounded too short.  I doubt there has been any physical change to the detector reflecting that change.

[Chase Goldman]

On 11/7/2022 at 5:13 PM, PSPR said:

And, a poster on another forum mentioned that he talked to a Minelab Engineer and was told that the Manticore is going to "change the way we detect." 

I seriously recommend not drinking the marketing hype kool aid.

[Chase Goldman]

21 hours ago, steveg said:

The shape of the plot is DIRECTLY related only to the "bounce" or "change" in VDI (or lack thereof) at each sampling interval, and only INDIRECTLY related the shape of the object...

Exactly.  I would also go further and say that it IS not related to the shape of the target at all but solely related to the variation (i.e., uncertainty) in the M-core's ability to discern a precise ID for the target.  It just so happens that large rusty objects are very likely to exhibit this behavior.

[PSPR]

4 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

I seriously recommend not drinking the marketing hype kool aid.

After reading some of what happened during the Equinox release, I've lowered my delivery expectations for the Manticore.  I'll now be surprised if I see one before Christmas.

[phrunt]

There will be a couple of things going on in the background, they'll want to ensure the product is up to scratch, they know they'll be torn to shreds if it's another GPX 6000 style release, I attribute the 6000 release to Windows Vista's release.  Those that are familiar with it will know what I mean.  

In 2007 when it was released with a massive advertising budget and great expectations, the first Windows to be running as a real operating system, not just a GUI sitting over top of DOS, it was going to be a game changer, fantastic and the computer users were excited.  Microsoft predicted 50% of computer users would be running it within 2 years.  Vista had so many compatibility and performance problems that even the most loyal Microsoft customers were extremely upset and disappointed. Vista severely flopped, and Apple jumped on it with a new ad campaign (“I’m a Mac”), causing many consumers to believe that Vista had far more problems than it really did.

The 6000 was released with a bunch of problems, a lot of angry and disappointed customers and even over a year after its release problems are still newly appearing such as the coil cracks.  From the Minelab website about the GPX 6000 construction, everyone knows this is a complete joke.  It maybe able to handle extreme heat and heavy rain, but it's coil will twist around and crack all over the place if it even works properly in the first place and the detector itself will have hardware problems requiring it sent back to be repaired even on detectors over a year after release.  Garrett can capitalize a bit on the disappointed 6000 customers with their Axiom just like Apple did to Microsoft.

Built to Last

Tested in the harsh environments of the Australian outback, Africa and the Middle East, the GPX 6000 can withstand extreme heat and heavy rains. A 3-year warranty is included, backed by Minelab's global support. 

They've come out saying the Manticore is better quality, from their website

UNRIVALLED CONSTRUCTION & EXTREME WATERPROOFING

No terrain is off limits with MANTICORE — dive up to 5 m (16 ft) for underwater exploration (IP68 Rating) to find hidden targets others can’t reach.

Some bold words from a company known for making high performance poor quality machines.  Unrivaled construction and extreme waterproofing.  If they are wrong on those statements they know they're going to get a lot of criticism.  The Nox construction was decent but waterproofing was very lacking.  Early ones had wobbly shafts, a few button breaks and arm cuffs snapping but nothing widespread with that.   Coil ears were the big one and they've changed design completely there to resolve that, hopefully.

Minelab seem to be acutely aware of the Osbourne effect too, their releases are carefully designed to keep other products they sell viable and not hinder their sales right down to the way they restrict coils on models to keep them distanced from other models.  The Manticore was priced in a way to keep the Equinox on the market, it's price may even drop a bit in the near future especially the 600 to battle it out with the Legend.

https://medium.com/strixus/the-osborne-effect-why-the-timing-of-your-new-product-announcement-is-essential-to-its-success-74717d0c1ca

[Chase Goldman]

46 minutes ago, PSPR said:

After reading some of what happened during the Equinox release, I've lowered my delivery expectations for the Manticore.  I'll now be surprised if I see one before Christmas.

It's anyone's guess on release date, the unveiling hype on M-core started earlier in the year than Equinox (August 2022 vs. Oct 2017).  Equinox started arriving on dealer's shelves around the end of January 2018 but all dealers were only receiving a handful of units each on initial shipment.  Assuming the same lead time, release before the end of the year is not out of the question, and I assume that the distribution will also be limited to a few units per dealer regardless of waiting list size or internet presence (i.e., high volume dealers like K-Co will not necessarily be favored). 

At the time, Equinox actually brought a number of game changing features at a revolutionary price point (FAST simultaneous multifrequency with multiple search profiles, multiple selectable single frequency, wireless audio, (supposedly) waterproof, rechargeable, and relatively light weight all for less that $1K).  Four and half years later, that stuff in pretty much standard on the leading edge, high-end VLF induction balance detectors (Equinox, Legend, Deus 2 (except for the price point part - but it also wire free) and even the mid-level Apex checks those boxes but with lesser SMF performance and recovery speed).  M-core looks like it fixes a lot of the flaws of Equinox and adds some features like improved customizable audio and, of course, target track, but you are paying a pretty penny for those fixes and added bells and whistles.  It will likely eventually replace my Equinox barring some as yet unknown flaw.  So in that respect I can understand statements like I will not use my Equinox again (same way I feel about my Deus 1 now that I have the Deus 2 in my hands, but the price of the Deus 2 is essentially the same as the Deus 1 was when it was first released).

But is it truly a game changer in the sense that Equinox was in 2017?  Even buying into the egregious marketing mumbo jumbo like 50% more coil power and the target trace blob size baloney, the answer is...not really IMO.  It seriously is NOT going to "change the way we detect", just as the revolutionary Equinox did not obsolete ALL single frequency detectors (but it DID usher in the age of the multi-use multi-frequency flagship detector). That's why I am not on any waiting lists and will not lose sleep over release dates like kids who can't sleep on Christmas eve.  I have the Nox and the Deus 2, a killer combo.  I am learning the Legend and, as of now, am not desperately waiting for M-core to obsolete my Equinox or anything else I regularly use, with great success.

[Carolina]

I firmly believe ( JMHO ), that the early release was primarily to slow or stop  the runaway train sales of the Deus ll. If you drop $1500.00 for a new detector, what’s the odds of doing it again six months later. Although it would be nothing for some, but the majority would not especially after seeing how well the first machine preformed. Again JMHO. MY $1500 fairly new machine is killin it so no Montycure in my future.