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New Minelab Manticore


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SteveG I agree with you on a lot of that Ferr/con.  I more often than not watched that smart screen then checked out the con digit.  We all learned the silver tinkle watched deep coins like nickels move to points no where near an air test coin.  Took me some time to realize what weak targets were… I really gained a lot of depth once it clicked.

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4 hours ago, steveg said:

GB_Amateur,

I can take a speculative shot at this, having been a pretty long-time FBS user.  

I am going to guess that this X,Y screen is FE in the vertical (y-axis) and CO in the horizontal (x-axis).  The horizontal line across the screen is probably similar to the "12-line" on an E-Trac or CTX. 

What the 12-line means is that when moving from the Explorer series (where FE numbers were different for each different target), they were "normalized" for "good" targets to a "12" FE number with the E-Trac, and again on the CTX 3030.  For instance, on an Explorer, a nickel was like 11 (FE) - 06 (CO), a copper penny was 04-28, a dime 03-29, a quarter 01-29, etc.  Meanwhile, a nail might ID in at 25-29.  So, while the "CO" number of a nail may be the same as a dime or quarter, the FE number was the "giveaway."  It was MUCH higher than a coin's FE number.  THEREFORE, many folks would set up the machine so as to cue their tones off of the CO number (you could choose to cue your tones off of either -- the CO number or the FE number), and then set their "iron bias" at somewhere 20 FE.  What that then means, is you are discriminating based on the FERROUS number, so any target with a FE ID of 20 or greater would be disc'd out.  The reason it was set around 20, is that no good targets air test with a FE number higher than 11 or 12 (nickel), BUT -- the interesting thing with Explorers is when bad/irony dirt would start to "screw with" the ID numbers, THE VAST MAJORITY of that effect was limited (through FBS wizardry) to the FERROUS side; the CO number stayed pretty steady, but the FE number would up-average on a deeper coin, in bad/irony dirt.  SO, that 03-29 air-test silver dime, down at say 8" deep, might read, on successive sweeps, 15-29, 13-28, 09-30, 16-28, 06-29, 05-28, 11-30.  The CO number would only vary by a digit or so either way, but the FE number might range all the way up into the teens.  THAT is why you had to set your "iron bias" (FE discrimination) up to at least high teens or around 20.  Make sense?  Meanwhile, on the 2D screen, where the FE-CO numbers represent an x,y coordinate, those "bouncing" FE numbers as I illustrated above, would create a similar "bouncing pattern" on the screen, if you watched the movement of the cursor.  Number guys (like myself) would watch how the NUMBERS bounce, but folks who ran the 2D smart screen, instead of the numbers screen, would watch how the cursor would "bounce," and they learned over time that certain locations of the cursor, and how the cursor would "bounce," on successive sweeps of the target, would indicate things about the type of target.

But then, along came the E-Trac, and Minelab felt it would be "easier" for users, instead of having to memorize TWO numbers for each target, and ALSO learn how the FE number would change, on deep coins, to instead just memorize CO numbers.  To allow this, they decided to "normalize" the FE number of any good target; they chose "12" as the number to "normalize" to.  So, even a deep coin was supposed to maintain a FE number very close to "12".  This was the case with most "good" targets (silver dollars, and half dollars, to some degree, would give lower FE numbers).  So, a copper penny that would read about 12-43 or so, a dime 12-44 to 12-45, silver dime maybe up to 12-46, and a quarter 12-46 to 12-47, would maintain that "12" FE number, even at depth -- maybe dropping to 11 or increasing to 13 at depth.   Meanwhile, moving over to the smart screen, the obvious change with the E-Trac, compared to the Explorers was that now, a good target should not display the "cursor bounce" like you'd see on an Explorer.  Instead, you would look for targets where the cursor stayed roughly "fixed" along the "12-line" (i.e. a horizontal line drawn through "12" on the y-axis, which is the FE axis).  KEEP IN MIND, though, that "bad" targets would have FE numbers NOT normalized to 12, so the FE number of a "bad" target will usually be higher -- i.e. low on the screen.  So, focusing on targets that fall along the 12-line, was a visual aid that helps imply what are "good" targets, and others not falling on the 12-line being generally junk.

NOW -- applying this, speculatively, to the Manticore...  If you look, you'll see a horizontal line through the screen, about 2/3 of the way up toward the top of the 2D coordinate system.  Let's call that the "12-line."  That's essentially what it is, as the videos I have seen paint a good target around that horizontal line.  So, it's essentially, very likely, a "12-line."  And, all that target trace is, instead of your cursor readout being "instantaneous only" -- i.e. where the cursor location at any moment, corresponds to the target ID AT THAT VERY MOMENT (as it was on the E-Trac, and the CTX also when not in "target trace mode"), the target trace is simply a "memory" of cursor positions over the last roughly 5 to 10 seconds.  It plots the cursor as a pixel on the screen, and so if you do the "Minelab wiggle" over a target, you are getting an increasingly dense plot of multiple, successive cursor positions (ID readouts of the target).  And yes, those cursor positions will form a "shape."  But, you can't think of the shape as something like a ground-penetrating radar, where it is showing you the "outline" of the target.  Let me explain further...

Again, recall that what those cursor positions are, are plots of TARGET ID.  So, you can imagine that a shallow, easy-to-ID coin is going to read VERY CONSISTENT, in terms of ID, almost like an air test.  SO -- imagine a shallow penny, on a CTX, that is IDing at 12-43, or VERY close to that.  This means that a "plot" of every cursor position is going to be very small, and nearly "round."  The "round" is representing the very slight "x-axis" variation in the target (CO) and the very slight y-axis variation (FE).  Thus, you get a small, round plot of cursor dots in target trace (and, centered along the "12-line").  

BUT, imagine a 2" long, 1/2" diameter brass cartridge casing.  Sweeping across the "short" axis, will give a tight ID readout, similar to a coin.  But, turning 90 degrees, and sweeping the "long" axis, will result in a DIFFERENT ID, and probably less "tight" (more variation in the CO number).  So, you can imagine that a plot of all those IDs, as you rotate the target, would "elongate" the plot...narrow when sweeping in one direction, but "longer" -- i.e. a more variable range of IDs, and focused in a different place along the "12-line" when sweeping across the target in the other direction.  SO -- you get a "shape" that is more "oblong," as opposed to tight and round.  MEANWHILE, a nail that is "falsing" with a high tone at times, is going to give you an elongated trace vertically, as it GENERALLY gives a correct FE ID down well below the "12-line," but other times, when it's "false high-toning" and masquerading on that sweep as a "good" target, you'll get some cursor plots near the "12-line."  Again, that would result in an elongated target trace -- suggestive of a "non-coin" target, some plots near the 12-line, but most being farther down the screen, and thus "elongated.")  

SO -- while a coin should look "tight" and "round" (if no other object is nearby that the machine is detecting simultaneous to the coin), the "round" is not DIRECTLY proportional to the fact that the coin is round, but the INDIRECT relationship is there, because of the fact that a round non-ferrous object generally IDs consistently/accurately on a high-quality ID machine.  And thus, with little variation in any direction of the target ID (FE, OR CO), the plots of the ID will all be concentrated in a small, generally circular shape.  Meanwhile, an elongated target that IDs differently when swept in one direction, versus another, will give an elongated trace...make sense?

Sorry for being so long-winded, but that's it, in a nutshell, what I feel is likely going to be the case with Manticore.


Steve

375138902_SmartSelect_20220901_065316_AdobeAcrobat.thumb.jpg.b15b97262f785c5fba86fd86abc0c578.jpg

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On FBS2 the rusted iron give away is bottom left corner for small rusted nails, ramping up to full screen splatter for larger rusted iron.

Nice round targets would give concentrated target id. Odd shaped targets would give more splatter around the mean target id.

Edge of detection for buried good targets would give near 1/2 screen splatter around the mean target id. Once out of the ground mean target id could be verified. Here is where the ground balance came in. Hit a deep non id target, ground balance in the local vicinity, watch the splatter, dig-no/dig decission. FBS2 advantage over FBS, BBS tech!! Shame on you Minelab for not having a dedicated All-metal channel with Self Adjusting Threshold. Frequent retuning needed for searching larger expanses.

All this goes out the window for co-located targets.

 

Multi IQ has the dedicated All-metal channel with SAT under the GB button. Priceless!! Switch over to disc channel and ID is simplified numbers for grown up kids. Useless!! Multi IQ is focused on speed, depth goes out the window. So does the Nox 800 for the deep ring hunter in saturated wet sand.

BBS/FBS2 remains King for the wet sand ring hunter.

Multi IQ is a Great inland hunter. 

Enter Multi IQ+ and with much speculation from my part. Multi frequency range should be expanded, better on the small stuff, better on the big deep stuff. GB channel should have the dedicated all-metal with SAT. XY screen is a (-Ferrous,Conductive,+Ferrous) plot around the GB point. Tones are squarish BEEP to facilitate easy recognition in windy, watery environments. VCO tones for the relic/nugget hunters. Different programs indicate different blends of SMF for different circumstances.

For the price point, we should be getting a taste off a CTX+. Doesn’t mean it ain’t good eatn’ It’s just not haute cuisine.

 

Here’s me still chomping at the bit for a manual to read!!

 

PS: I didn’t mention Deus Deux because this is Minelab thread.

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From a dealers Q&A.   What does the term "50% more power", exactly mean? Does it mean the battery charge last longer, more detection depth or what? answer now
Asked by blank on August 31, 2022 4:43 PM
Answered by the admin 

MULTI IQ+:  Minelab’s revolutionary technology has 50% more power than traditional models and is the highest-powered simultaneous multi-frequency machine on the market.

 

This statement refers to the Multi-Frequency In Phase and Quadrature Synchronous Demodulation technology Minelab developed. Comparing single frequency VLF vs. Multi-IQ, Multi-IQ can provide a much greater target accuracy and better detecting performance, especially in difficult ground.

 

Statement from Dr Philip Wahrlich, Minelab's principal technology physicist, about a key difference of Multi-IQ compared to the demodulation taking place in conventional single frequency VLF detectors:

 

“Within the Multi-IQ engine, the receiver is both phase-locked and amplitude-normalized to the transmitted magnetic field – rather than the electrical voltage driving the transmitted field. This field can be altered by the mineralization in the soil (in both phase and amplitude), so if the receiver was only phased-locked to the driving voltage, this would result in inaccurate target IDs and a higher audible noise level. Locking the receiver to the actual transmitted field, across all frequencies simultaneously (by measuring the current through the coil) solves these issues, creating a very sensitive AND stable detector”.

 

 

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A Mongrel will cost you $2,499 in Australia.. More than twice the price of an Equinox 800.. It better be good! 

Screenshot 2022-09-03 143159.jpg

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I don't think I can justify spending that much again at this stage, my Deus 2 cost me $2499 as well. Times are getting tougher that's for sure.

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8 minutes ago, unox said:

my Deus 2 cost me $2499 as well.

I was trying really hard not to make the comparison.. 🙂 That's also what I paid for my Deus II.. I was hoping for something a bit cheaper as well, that price would have to justify a hell of a performance gain.. 

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9 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

Thanks, steveg!  I understood a lot on the first reading and I'll reread after checking out more screen photos of the Mambocorp.  The ML Explorer (digital) readout seems more intuitive but I guess in practice the later normalized methods were more informative?  (Or is it the typical "dumbing down" for the least common denominator type of detectorist?)

Good stuff.

GB -- I think it was a bit of "dumbing down," as you say.  For me, and I know other Explorer users who said so, the way FE numbers behaved gave helpful information to the user, whereas once you "force" the FE numbers to read "12" all the time, you lose some of that...

Just my opinion.

Steve

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7 hours ago, dewcon4414 said:

SteveG I agree with you on a lot of that Ferr/con.  I more often than not watched that smart screen then checked out the con digit.  We all learned the silver tinkle watched deep coins like nickels move to points no where near an air test coin.  Took me some time to realize what weak targets were… I really gained a lot of depth once it clicked.

dewcon -- exactly!  When you learned how deep coins "moved" in their ID, with depth (nickels were a great example of that, as you note), that was key to unlocking the depth capabilities of the Explorer series.  A deep nickel for me was high teens FE many times, and once you learn that, you were able (with the stock coil) to KILL on deep nickels.  The interesting thing, though, is I found that the stock 11-inch "Pro" coil was the only one you could do that with, on the nickels specifically.  When I switched to the Detech 13" ultimate, I gained depth for silver coins, which is really what I target, BUT, completely lost the Pro coil's ID behavior on deep nickels...

Anyway, good memories!  And for those who I exasperated with that earlier, long post trying to answer GB_amateur's questions, my apologies...

Steve

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