New Minelab Manticore

[steveg]

4 hours ago, Geordiedan said:

Not sure if this info has been shared yet, but taken from a post I've read elsewhere:

"2D ID Mapping
The CTX3030 from Minelab, is a highly-regarded coin and treasure detector, maintaining its status as a high-performance metal detector for 10-years now. And one of the features that made this machine so popular is its visual XY, 2D presentation of targets. The FeCo system, or Ferrous and Conductivity to the uninitiated visually plotted the two different attributes on display, allowing the detectorists to analyse and decide on what a target could be due to the plotting position of a target. Very cool! However, Minelab have taken this system and made it even more sophisticated. The Manticore has a new 2D mapping system which has a horizontal line running through its centre. Targets which are plotted along this central line are non ferrous and the further they stray from it above or below mean they contain a higher iron content. That covers the targets position along the y axis, and this leaves the left to right, or x position which then covers conductivity, with low conductors on the left and high conductors on the right.

But here’s where it reaches the next level, the shape of the indicator on the map also related to the target. A solid, concise object, like a coin will most likely be represented as a nice, clean dot on the screen, whereas a more erratic object will be represented as a more irregular shape. For example; a silver coin would show up along the centre line, as a tight dot, and towards the right side of the screen (due to its high conductivity), whereas a small iron nail would show up far from the centre line, as an irregular shape, and further towards the left of the screen (due to its lower conductivity). That’s a hell of a lot of information about a target before you even dig it. We will say though, it’s not going to be perfect every time, obviously environmental factors and target position will play a role in determining how precise signals are displayed."

 

Target Separation
Here’s something we have to tell you, as it blew our mind. Ensure you’ve read the above about 2D ID mapping to fully understand this bit.

Craig Allison met Mark Lawrie, The Chief Engineer at Minelab and this demonstrated how good the Manticore is at target separation. Mark first showed us how the Manticore would communicate a hammered coin. He waived it left to right above the coil, and sure enough as described previously we saw a nice, tight dot, on the centre line of the Manticore display. What was really impressive however was when Mark added a second target into the mix. On the second demonstration Mark waived the hammered coin again, but also a large piece of lead with his other hand, both passing from left to right over the coil. We once again saw the hammered coin’s dot in the same place, but now saw a larger, messy splodge in the far-left corner of the screen. This easily illustrated that two targets were present, and that the Manticore is easily able to separate targets and reduce masking. This is a real game changer in terms of knowing when to dig, particularly in trashy sites like Roman settlements where lots of iron may be present and would therefore sometimes cause detectorists to doubt signals and decide not to dig.

 

The paragraph above, that I put in bolded, italicized, enlarged, red text, is -- in my opinion, marketing mumbo-jumbo.  While most of it is largely "true," you really have to read it carefully, as the truth is "in there," but "obfuscated."  The one thing that I believe is NOT true -- and it's why I say it's marketing nonsense, is the part that said, essentially, "while the CTX could plot targets, the Manticore 'takes it to the next level,' by giving the target SHAPE."  The implication there is that the Manticore is doing something that the CTX could not, and this is simply not true.

The bottom line, as I've said a million times, is that the target shape is only INDIRECTLY related to the target.  And I strongly believe that whatever the Manticore can do, in terms of "shape," is the same thing the CTX would do.  A good, round, consistently ID-ing target would show up as a small round blob, on the CTX 2-D screen, just as it will on the Manticore 2-D screen.  Likewise, an irony, elongated, bouncy ID-ing target would show up non-round, more like an elongated smear in many cases, ON EITHER UNIT.  So, THIS IS NOTHING NEW! 

That's not to say that the Manticore screen may not be higher-resolution, thus possibly allowing "tighter" circles to be drawn.  And also, of course, the more accurate the ID algorithms are on a unit, the more "small" and "round" a coin or ring will show up.  So, if the Manticore has a more "precise" ID algorithm than the CTX, then the shapes may be "prettier" on a round object (again, those "round" shapes being reflective of the very consistent, non-varying ID...such that plotting multiple snapshots of the x,y ID numbers on an x,y coordinate system would result in a very small/round "dot").

But, my point here is -- DO NOT BE FOOLED into thinking the Manticore is taking any sort of "reading" that would allow a "direct" plot of the outline of the shape of any given target.  The shape of the plot is DIRECTLY related only to the "bounce" or "change" in VDI (or lack thereof) at each sampling interval, and only INDIRECTLY related the shape of the object...

Steve

[rled2005]

3 minutes ago, steveg said:

The paragraph above, that I put in bolded, italicized, enlarged, red text, is -- in my opinion, marketing mumbo-jumbo.  While most of it is largely "true," you really have to read it carefully, as the truth is "in there," but "obfuscated."  The one thing that I believe is NOT true -- and it's why I say it's marketing nonsense, is the part that said, essentially, "while the CTX could plot targets, the Manticore 'takes it to the next level,' by giving the target SHAPE."  The implication there is that the Manticore is doing something that the CTX could not, and this is simply not true.

The bottom line, as I've said a million times, is that the target shape is only INDIRECTLY related to the target.  And I strongly believe that whatever the Manticore can do, in terms of "shape," is the same thing the CTX would do.  A good, round, consistently ID-ing target would show up as a small round blob, on the CTX 2-D screen, just as it will on the Manticore 2-D screen.  Likewise, an irony, elongated, bouncy ID-ing target would show up non-round, more like an elongated smear in many cases, ON EITHER UNIT.  So, THIS IS NOTHING NEW! 

That's not to say that the Manticore screen may not be higher-resolution, thus possibly allowing "tighter" circles to be drawn.  And also, of course, the more accurate the ID algorithms are on a unit, the more "small" and "round" a coin or ring will show up.  So, if the Manticore has a more "precise" ID algorithm than the CTX, then the shapes may be "prettier" on a round object (again, those "round" shapes being reflective of the very consistent, non-varying ID...such that plotting multiple snapshots of the x,y ID numbers on an x,y coordinate system would result in a very small/round "dot").

But, my point here is -- DO NOT BE FOOLED into thinking the Manticore is taking any sort of "reading" that would allow a "direct" plot of the outline of the shape of any given target.  The shape of the plot is DIRECTLY related only to the "bounce" or "change" in VDI (or lack thereof) at each sampling interval, and only INDIRECTLY related the shape of the object...

Steve

I never thought it would show shapes, it places the metallic properties in different places, but maybe that’s just a linear crossover from the sound differences. Which, if you’re like me with hearing issues(from the military), it is a nice visual addition, plus the vibration on handle! I couldn’t resist, so I pre-ordered one.

[steveg]

17 minutes ago, rled2005 said:

I never thought it would show shapes, it places the metallic properties in different places, but maybe that’s just a linear crossover from the sound differences. Which, if you’re like me with hearing issues(from the military), it is a nice visual addition, plus the vibration on handle! I couldn’t resist, so I pre-ordered one.

Yes, you are EXACTLY correct!  It's a LINEAR CROSSOVER from the sound differences.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the Manticore in any way.  I can't wait to get one, and I'm on a pre-order list as well.  And I agree with you that hearing something audibly, AND seeing it visually, is helpful, no doubt.  ESPECIALY for people who are "visual learners."  

So, this is in no way "bashing."  I'm just trying to set expectations; some people seem to be thinking...encouraged by marketing hype...that there's some "magic" in the Manticore that can plot the outline of the shape of the target for you.  AND THERE IS NOT.  

Steve

[Geordiedan]

Yep, with you there Steve as I think I’ve posted before. I’m looking forward to getting my hands on one as my sites are hugely mixed with historical trash, so every little help for discrimination will be awesome. 

[Chesroy]

For me I would have liked the option to be able to turn off the 2d mapping definitely not a fan.

[strick]

6 hours ago, Chesroy said:

For me I would have liked the option to be able to turn off the 2d mapping definitely not a fan.

Well then just use your Equinox...why bother with the Beast? 

strick 

[rled2005]

7 hours ago, Chesroy said:

For me I would have liked the option to be able to turn off the 2d mapping definitely not a fan.

That’s an interesting idea. A GPS coordinate readout could have been an alternate switchover, but we would pay over $2000 for it I would assume. 

[phrunt]

I think you'd be surprised how useful Target Trace is, it's fantastic on the CTX and that's a decade old detector now so I can only hope they've improved it even further.  In my soils here Multi-IQ was brilliant for ID stability and depth and with them hinting the Manticore has some depth advantages and more stable ID's than the Nox I'm expecting really good things with it's version of Target Trace. 

I like just about everything about the Manticore, with the only concern I have being the battery life, especially if I go prospecting with it, it just won't last the full day.  I might be able to tweak it up a bit to last longer, disable the back light and so on to give it a bit more juice, perhaps plug it into a USB power bank while I stop for lunch.   Higher frequencies like used prospecting tend to use less battery power too.

They're hinting at better EMI immunity too, although I've seen no evidence of that yet, in all the videos I've seen it's behaved similar to how the Nox would in that situation I think, but time will tell. 

If you are capable of using your Nox with 50 tones, you already have target trace, your brain just has to decipher it and some people are capable of doing that, for me I can't go past 5 tones so I benefit greatly from the visuals target trace provides. 🙂

I thought the Nox was near the perfect machine with the build quality being it's only downfall.  It got to the point with mine the only ML parts were the pod and the coil, and not always even the coil so I avoided much of the problems.  That and I just wasn't brave enough to use it in water much.    The Manticore designers took notice of the Nox faults, aren't shy of admitting them in the Manticore videos and have said it won't have those problems, so for me, it might be my perfect VLF.

[Chesroy]

2 hours ago, strick said:

Well then just use your Equinox...why bother with the Beast? 

strick 

Because we are being told it is an improvement on the Equinox. More TID numbers and poly something or other sounds enabling you to hear dual target responses. So the machine is not all about 2d mapping. If it is then yes the nox is good enough for me no problems with that

[steveg]

3 hours ago, phrunt said:

I think you'd be surprised how useful Target Trace is, it's fantastic on the CTX and that's a decade old detector now so I can only hope they've improved it even further.  In my soils here Multi-IQ was brilliant for ID stability and depth and with them hinting the Manticore has some depth advantages and more stable ID's than the Nox I'm expecting really good things with it's version of Target Trace.

phrunt -- if you wrote this part in response to Chesroy's post, I agree with you, and was wanting to say some of the same things.  Chesroy, don't write it off, before you give it a chance.  First off, I'm not sure why having it there, even if you NEVER look at it, is a negative; you'll still have your "legacy" VDI number to look at, same as on your Equinox.  BUT, with that said, there is information available in target trace that -- while arguably "there," in the tones -- is easier sometimes to comprehend/interpret when you see it on a screen.  Give it a chance; I think you may be surprised.

3 hours ago, phrunt said:

If you are capable of using your Nox with 50 tones, you already have target trace, your brain just has to decipher it and some people are capable of doing that, for me I can't go past 5 tones so I benefit greatly from the visuals target trace provides. 🙂

This is true, to a large degree, but I want to add a nuance.  Phrunt, you already know this, as a CTX user, but many who have never used FBS do not. 

For years, the Minelab Explorer (FBS) was my detector of choice.  Like other FBS machines, every target detected by an Explorer would be assigned two numbers (mathematically, an x,y coordinate pair) -- an FE and a CO number.  So, along those lines, each target would likewise be assigned a place on the 2-D screen (mathematically, an x,y coordinate system).  IN GENERAL, on an Explorer, a U.S. milled coin hunter would be looking for targets with a LOW FE number, and a HIGH CO number.  There are some exceptions, but let's just go with that for illustration.  SO, in general, low FE number and high CO number was indicative of a coin-type target, while HIGH FE number and high CO number would be an iron target, like a nail.  SO -- for instance -- a dime would read roughly 03-29 on an Explorer, while a nail might ready 25-29.  

The reason I am explaining all of this, is as follows.  On an FBS machine, one could set up their tones to "cue off of," or "align with," EITHER the FE numbers, or the CO numbers.  Think about that for a minute.  We are ALL used to our tones "cuing off of" the "conductive" number, because that's essentially what we have, to some degree, on most machines.  Low tones (low conductive numbers) and high tones (high conductive numbers).  So, likewise, on an Explorer, one could use a tone profile called "conductive tones," and this was much like a "regular" machine -- the higher the CO number, the higher the conductor.  Meanwhile, though, one could alternatively use a tone profile called "ferrous tones."  Using THIS profile, a low ferrous number was assigned a high tone, while a higher ferrous number was assigned a lower tone.  SO -- if you were a coin hunter, running in "ferrous tones," you would still want to listen, generally, for "high tones" (which, using "ferrous tones," would mean that those high tones would be associated with a low FE number).   So, with either tonal profile -- conductive tones or ferrous tones -- a coin hunter would prefer to hear high tones, but with the nuance being that you'd either be deciphering CONDUCTIVE information, or FERROUS information.  There were some advantages to using ferrous tones, over conductive tones, but I won't get into that now.  What is important is to just wrap your mind around this, for the sake of what I'm working to illustrate.

So, if that makes sense, then one thing that is important to see, is this.  If you were running conductive tones, ALL of the "direct" information you would get from the tones (how high or how low the tone might be) was related ENTIRELY to the "conductivity" of the target.  In other words, you'd get NO "direct" information about the ferrous side of things, through your tones.  Now, I say "direct," because of course there would still be "nuance" in the tones, that might hint at something non-round, or even "irony," but that's more "indirect."  Directly, though, when running conductive tones, what you are hearing, tonally, is CONDUCTIVE information.  WHICH MEANS, then, that in order to get FERROUS information, you HAD TO LOOK AT THE SCREEN.  In doing so, you would THEN be given the FE information also -- either as a numerical readout, OR, on your 2-D screen.  And this is IMPORTANT to understand.  Because on the Explorer, simply LISTENING to the tones, was not giving you the "full picture," directly.  BUT -- visually, seeing the FE number, OR, alternatively, the POSITION of the target on the 2D screen (which thus includes the ferrous ID information), would give you much more information about the target.

And my point here in all of this wordiness IS -- I expect this to be very similar on the Manticore.  I am nearly sure there is no way on the Manticore to set the VDI to show both an FE and a CO number.  BUT -- this FE information WILL be there, on the 2D screen.  SO -- if you have the machine set such that the tones are tied to the conductive number (which I expect will be the default on the Manticore), there WILL be additional information -- i.e. FERROUS information -- that can be gleaned DIRECTLY, from a VISUAL perspective -- i.e. by looking at the location of the plot of the target on the 2D screen.  OF COURSE those of us who have used the Equinox have learned to "glean" information from the tones, and the tonal behavior, that indicate that even a high-toning target may likely be a nail, BUT, with the 2D screen, you will be able to see some of this visually, and more "directly."  Again, this is due to the fact that each target's FE characteristics can be seen clearly on the screen, based on where the target plot is located in 2-D space.  And with a big focus on the Manticore apparently being its IRON resolution, and presumably, iron ID accuracy, this should really prove to be beneficial -- as we'll have a grapical representation of whatever iron information the machine is able to convey.  YES, our ears will be hearing the usual hints and indications that a high-toning target, such as a "falsing nail," may be iron, but visually, seeing the machine's read of a target's FE characteristics DIRECTLY PLOTTED, on the 2D screen, should assist in determining more accurately whether the target is a "good" high tone, or is more likely to be a nail masquerading as a coin...

Steve