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Minelab Manticore Unofficial Specs And Features Thread


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On 11/7/2022 at 10:05 AM, Sinclair said:

Even if there's a BT receiver with new standard available - I have bad remindings testing different ones on the Nox.
Most of them are made to transfer musik. If there's no audio, they fall in kind of a sleep mode or audio mute and I always had the feeling, I've missed something..

I expect there will be some 'research' done amongst the posters here searching for one that works satisfactorily.  With the WM08 I had no reason to go that direction, but sounds like I'll be one (among many?) of the tinkerers this time.  That is, in my case anyway, unless the supplied ML105's are as comfortable, sound blocking, and with audible details as the Sunray Pro Golds.  (Not holding my breath on that option.)

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Here's a link to some good info on Bluetooth LE Audio:

https://www.soundguys.com/bluetooth-le-audio-lc3-explained-28192/

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/whats-bluetooth-le-audio-explaining-the-latest-wireless-tech-standard/

It will likely be awhile before BT LE compatible/universal  receiver/transmitters hit the streets.  But there should ultimately be a larger selection of compatible hardware (provided M-core is fully compliant with the Bluetoo LE Audio spec) as unlike APTX LL that is/was a proprietary licensed codec that required special chipsets to be installed in the BT hardware, BT LE Audio is the non-proprietary industry standard.

APTX LL latency is 20 - 40 ms.

BT LE Audio is specified at 20 - 30 ms.

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Yup, LE has made all other forms of Bluetooth obsolete, including offshoots like Qualcomm's aptX LL, it existed as traditional Bluetooth was too slow for some uses, now standard Bluetooth is better therefore aptX LL is dead, although it already was discontinued so perhaps they saw the writing on the wall.  It was basically a proprietary offshoot which is why so few products used it, LE will be completely standard, everything modern will have it, and it uses less battery life so manufacturers will want to widely adopt it quite quickly.  This line from the Soundguys article says it all, "Next-gen Bluetooth audio gear gains a lot of very useful features that should be much more widely supported than third party equivalents."

I'm so glad the Manticore has LE, the timing of its release was just right for it.  I can imagine release date decisions were based upon when they can get the LE chips, as a big selling point of the detector will be it's much improved Bluetooth audio.

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15 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

APTX LL latency is 20 - 40 ms.

From that article:

The new spec also has a shorter minimum latency claim (20–30 ms, a Bluetooth SIG spokesperson told Ars Technica) than Bluetooth Classic audio (typically 100–200 ms, according to Bluetooth SIG). This is especially interesting to competitive gamers for whom every millisecond is critical.

Looked up "Bluetooth SIG" on wikipedia.  SIG is a pseudonym for Special Interest Group who set standards but are not involved in manufacture.  I couldn't find an 'about us' tab on the Ars Technica website so also got some info at Wikipedia.  Seems like a small company which produces a product similar to what used to be hard copy magazines.  (Their website ads sure bog down my desktop although only 4 GB memory on that is kind of antiquated....)

(I see phrunt has posted so he's probably going to say something more intelligent than I was planning on. 😁)  Bottom line for me is that I hope the 20-30 ms latency quote is either a misquote/misrepresentation or the minimum standard and that the Manticore audio system will beat it.  I hate it when a new product from the same company underperforms in any way the product it is supposed to replace -- specifically the low latency (proprietary) capability of the Equinox WM08.  AFAIC I can't conclude that yet.

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@phrunt From a discussion 3 weeks ago (I'm linking my own post because it was easier for me to find), how does this new report mesh with what you said then?  Specifically do you think this 20-30 ms latency report from the article Chase linked will cover the Manticore performance, or is it possibly a worst case (minimum standard) that the Manticore will beat?  I realize you don't have inside info on the Manticore (do you? 😁) but your argument that bit rate affects latency gives me hope the Manticore Bluetooth LE performance will meet or exceed the Equinox WM08's.

(Anyone else's educated view/guess is welcome, too, AFAIC.)

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It is my understanding they can set the transmission bitrate for the audio spectrum required so for the Manticore they will transmit at 160kbps which as that article Chase posted even at the lowest bitrate will sound better than the standard Bluetooth at a much higher bitrate, as metal detectors don't need a full spectrum with very low bass like a music player for example they can easily bring the bitrate down thereby faster latency.  They also don't need very high bitrate high quality audio so they can select a transmission bitrate to transmit that suits the audio of the detector, the lower the bitrate they transmit the lower the latency, this all fits within the specifications and won't require any special receiver equipment.

Because Bluetooth LE Audio supports flexible bitrates, products can be differentiated more easily. For example, a developer that wants to create a device with the best audio quality possible can leverage the LC3 bitrate of 345 Kilobits per Second (kbps). Or another developer focused on battery life can use the 160-kbps bitrate because it uses far less power.   The lower the bitrates transmitted, the lower the latency.  Minelab will have configured their output to provide the sound quality the detector needs while giving the lowest latency.  Keep in mind LE at lowest latency produces better sound quality than standard older Bluetooth at a much higher latency.

I should add if they want the lowest latency with an even lower bitrate they can use LC3 Plus, at 96kbps with Bluetooth LE, this is when they can get down to 5ms.

https://audioxpress.com/news/lc3plus-certified-for-hi-res-audio-wireless-by-the-japanese-audio-society

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4 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I hate it when a new product from the same company underperforms in any way the product it is supposed to replace

My only comment to the above is that it is not clear to me ML hopped on board BT LE LC3 Audio to optimize or minimize latency but simply to combat wireless obsolescence (and I suppose as a means to exit their own proprietary wireless equipment continuing product development).  I point to the GPX 6000 which is APTX LL without a ML proprietary Wi Stream HW option.  So compared to the GPZ 7000 or even the Nox (I know the GPX 6K is not a replacement for those detectors), the next generation GPX arguably took a step back in audio performance (latency), strictly speaking.  So I am not sure ML is necessarily going to push latency to meet or exceed the WiStream 17ms spec.  To ML, 20 - 30 ms might be good enough.  I’m just an unabashed cynic when it comes to some of ML’s design practices.  TBH - APTX LL suited me just fine, so I have no issues with the nominal latency spec of BT LE.  I know you are sensitive to it, though, GB, but I think if they meet 20ms, should be close enough to what you are used to with the WM08.   I also hope that ML doesn’t cut audio fidelity (bit rate) to the bone.  I know we’re not talking audiophile music spectrums here but I would not trade any more rich audio sound space (audio information tonal nuances can transmit surprisingly more subtle target information than visual Sid’s and target ID numbers) for latency than necessary (15-25 ms should suffice, no need to sacrifice to get to 5ms IMO unless the audio spectrum associated with the 96 kbs rate is sufficient to get the job done.  IMO

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14 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

So I am not sure ML is necessarily going to push latency to meet or exceed the WiStream 17ms spec.  To ML, 20 - 30 ms might be good enough.  I’m just an unabashed cynic when it comes to some of ML’s design practices.  TBH - APTX LL suited me just fine, so I have no issues with the nominal latency spec of BT LE.  I know you are sensitive to it, though, GB, but I think if they meet 20ms, should be close enough to what you are used to with the WM08.

I hope I'm not getting too forgetful, but don't both the XP Deus 2 and Nokta Legend use proprietary wireless (still)?  What are their latencies?  (Seems like this should have come up before but I don't remember it.)

I hope when the Manticore gets released that ML will state the latency.  If they don't I'm sure some detectorist with an oscilloscope will.  (hint, hint to some members here :biggrin:)

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33 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

I hope I'm not getting too forgetful, but don't both the XP Deus 2 ... use proprietary wireless (still)?  

Yes XP uses a proprietary wireless since the Deus1 which was released in 2010 . I dont know the XP wireless latency but it is  very low as it is not hearable  , either for the D1 or for the D2 ...  It is very reliable , I have never had a pb with the XP wireless after hundreds of hours with the D1 , and now with the D2 ... 

From my standpoint it is not important wether its proprietary or not , I just need something that works , and it is the case for the XP wireless ...

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46 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

I hope I'm not getting too forgetful, but don't both the XP Deus 2 and Nokta Legend use proprietary wireless (still)?  What are their latencies?  (Seems like this should have come up before but I don't remember it.)

I hope when the Manticore gets released that ML will state the latency.  If they don't I'm sure some detectorist with an oscilloscope will.  (hint, hint to some members here :biggrin:)

Legend only uses BT APTX-LL for wireless.  Nokta abandoned their proprietary wireless used on Simplex and prior detectors (including their wireless pinpointer) during the transition to Legend which was disappointing because I had invested in their wireless pinpointer after my Simplex purchase hoping to be able to link it to Legend.  I believe they are working on another variant using BT to be compatible with Legend.  Oh great, another $100+ accessory to buy when they could have just put a second radio in Legend (a la Equinox) to retain forward compatibility of their proprietary wireless accessories. SMH.

XP does not publish the latency spec for their Deus/Orx/Deus 2 multipurpose wireless platform (digital audio AND data information is transmitted across the system).

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