Lamenting What Manticore's Hype Machine Means To The Hobby

[Chase Goldman]

I see some folks lamenting the lack of concrete  ML "official" video and written documentation on M-core.  Many of these folks also state they are already on the various dealer waiting lists (which implies they have already made their "buy" decisions regardless of not having that additional information in hand).  I too would like to have that information, but I have also not jumped on the dealer waiting list bandwagon and don't intend to actually make the buy decision until I have that concrete information and also hands-on feedback from users I trust.

I have no idea what the waiting lists look like for M-core.  But presuming they are anything like Equinox (despite M-core being primarily a refined Equinox with some bells and whistles and, hopefully, apparently addressing the design/manufacturing faults of the original Nox (with the requisite price increase) then ML would likely be less motivated to get that additional info out there any sooner than necessary because folks have apparently already made their buy decision, regardless.  Think timing for the user guide and instructional videos being closer to, or just in time for, detector release later this year rather than the recent September marketing "launch" (which some are confusing with "release").

This approach, though not uncommon for ML, is consistent with what many view as a pattern of behavior that places the user as a secondary consideration to profit.  Why do more than you have to, to make that sale.  Yes, not uncommon for businesses, especially successful businesses.  But this is in stark contrast to the direct competition like Nokta, Garrett, and even XP who are listening and mostly reacting to customer feedback, in a timely manner.  Imagine having to cajole Nokta, et al into admitting, much less addressing, fixing coil ears/coil issues, leaking control pods, speaker problems (GPX 6000), wobbly shafts, enabling cross platform compatibility of accessory coils and audio accessories, releasing manuals well before product release, etc.  In some cases there are direct correlations for the competition quickly addressing and fixing these things (even outside of warranty periods) to keep its loyal customers, loyal.  And while its true all these players are in business to make profit, ML seems to be too big to worry about these "little" things that users notice and, as many successful businesses do, keeps them under the radar, blame shifts and then quietly addresses them as "improvements" rather than the "fixes" to defects in previous products.  ML's ability to outpace the competition in the raw performance and sophistication of its product line (and M-core will surely keep up that tradition and will be a legitimate detecting power tool) is both a blessing and a curse to the customer base, in this respect.  The competition has to keep up.  It's not enough to keep the customer #1, the product needs to at least be competitive as well.  The three competitors mentioned earlier have done a lot in the past year to keep pace. They need to keep pressing to force ML to pay attention to these little things too.

Yeah, sitting out the early adopter phase waiting lists on this one.  Maybe I'll get lucky and be able to snag a like-new unit off the market  after release that was dumped by an inexperienced/delusional purchaser who mistakenly bought the YouTube influencer hype and polished marketing and thought was going to be Harry Potter's magic deep keeper magnet and pull tab rejector.  These are the impulsive/impatient folks who mistakenly think that detectors make treasure vs. research, site selection, experience, and putting the hundreds of hours in to learn the ins and outs of your new detecting toy.  I ought to know, because that was me when I first started out.  A little more jaded and experienced now.  Been burned (hello MX Sport) and burned again. 

But even though M-core is not overly compelling compared to what I have right now (that wasn't the case when the game changer Equinox arrived on the scene), I can also still get excited about a new product that even provides marginal improvements and upgrades to what I have now.  I'm certainly eyeing M-core.  Unless there is some fatal flaw we don't know about, M-core will likely eventually make it to my arsenal, but it will have prove itself BEFORE I wait in line and hand over my cash (this time).

But I am hoping these other manufacturers prove something to ML in the near future.  Having multiple, competitive manufacturers in the hobby/business is just a good thing for all of us who are passionate about the detecting.

[Steve Herschbach]

Can't say I disagree with any of that.

On the flip side, as big boy hobbies go, metal detectors can be seen as a trivial purchase. Ever buy a good dirt bike? Side by side ATV? Boat, or watercraft, or snowmobile? A big trailer or RV? A top notch gun, or a fine set of golf clubs? Compared to any of this, a new metal detector is nothing really.

So a guy buys one, turns out to have issues with it, or does not like it. Buy and try. Lose a few hundred bucks. Big deal. So I get it, and can't fault anyone for wanting to be the first with a new toy, good or not. Minelab is responsible for their own behavior, it's not our fault.

[Chase Goldman]

True.  Its definitely a stretch to connect the dots and say hopping on waiting lists is contributing to less than exemplary ML customer service and "listening".   If people are truly unhappy with the end product, then they can vote with their wallet and that will certainly motivate change.  As long as the profit is made, there definitely is no motivation for a manufacturer to do anything different.  It is more a lament that such a technically good product demotivates a company to sweat the small stuff.   

And yeah, I clumsily conflated two things there, also.  I thought it was funny to contemplate the logical disconnect that people who immediately  hopped on waiting lists then complained they weren't getting enough concrete information out of the manufacturer (presumably to make that "buy" decision or assuage their buyer's anxiety, or simple impatience).  It was more of an observation than a cause and effect, but made me start thinking about what motivates a successful company to "care" for its customer base.

[Steve Herschbach]

It's all about the money. Even that, well, arrogance does funny things. We watched Tesoro and White's drive the bus off the cliff, rather than listen to what the customers were saying. Or only listening to the customers that told them how great they are. I do tend to get grumpy myself with people who defend companies from "unfair criticism". They are helping nobody really, even the companies they think they are defending.

The customers a company really needs to listen to are it's critics. I used to thank people who came to me with complaints, when I was running my business. They could have taken their business elsewhere. Some did anyway. But they told me why, whereas most people just silently leave. People who care enough to complain - care. Companies need to pay attention to the people that care, as the things they complain about are the keys to even more future success, if addressed properly. Complaints are an opportunity for improvement. Unfortunately, lots of companies would rather just hear self reinforcing praise.

[CPT_GhostLight]

This is an interesting discussion and it brings important points to light that many people ignore, don't care, or have never thought about.

1. Corporations don't care about people, people do. Corporations "care" about and are responsible only to their boards members and shareholders. Note: The "Big 4" metal detector companies are corporations.

2. Marketing works.

3. Advocacy groups can have an impact on corporations. I view the Detector Prospector forum as an advocacy group for the detecting and prospecting hobbies and it has become apparent that the "Big 4" pay attention to what is said here. How they respond to that information varies by their aggendas, but they do seem to respond.

4. Metal detecting is a hobby. While many can make a vocation from a hobby, the majorty of this market share are hobbyists.

Now if you all will excuse me, I'm going to go swing my detector around and try to find something. 😎

[GB_Amateur]

I understand the bad feelings some of Minelab's actions elicit.  In fact I just made a post on another thread about one of my uneasy feelings regarding something said on Friday.  But I'm reminded of the cliche' don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

There seems to have been a trend started here where highly respected detectorists are going on record as not being first adopters of the Manticore.  Fair enough.  I'm not as highly skilled/experience as those people, but... I'm getting close to jumping on the bandwagon.  The X-Y graphic screen is the number one attraction for me -- something I've wanted for a long time having seen it on White's V3 family as well as the ML high end detectors E-Trac and CTX3030.  Four years ago I wanted a detector that allowed me to set the tone volumes, tone pitches, and especially tone breaks.  The Equinox met my hopes with flying colors.  I'm counting on the Manticore to do similarly.  Any increase in discriminatory depth will be a bonus.  Maybe I'll be disappointed, but I'll finish with another familiar cliche': you can't take it with you.

[phrunt]

I'm Minelabs #1 fan, I'm also their #1 critic.  🙂 

I love Minelab detectors, absolutely, but only because there is no other choice for me, they make what I need.  If I had options they'd be out the door quicker than you can say bye.  

Possibly foolishly I'm getting a Manticore and it's complete set of coils as soon as I possibly can.  Why? Because I love the Nox and it's the successor, it has to be improved.  I love the CTX and it has some of it's traits.... I hope it works out for me, I really think it will.

The only Minelab that left me with a very sour taste in my mouth was the 6000, every other one of their detectors I've purchased I've really liked.   I didn't like their marketing for the 6000, and I didn't like the poor quality for such a high priced detector, If it was a $1200 detector I'd be more forgiving with the absolutely dismal quality of it, not just build quality but more importantly reliability.  I'm a forgiving person, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt it was tough times with Covid and manufacturing and problems happened beyond their control.  If only they took a few pages from Nokta's book and learnt how to communicate to their customers the problems wouldn't have been near as bad.  If they came out saying yes we acknowledge there seems to be a few problems and outlined them and we are working to resolve them would I have been as annoyed at them? No.

Fingers crossed they've learnt from their mistakes and the Manicore is a well tested machine that meets my expectations.  I'm really looking forward to it.

[Cal_Cobra]

3 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

On the flip side, as big boy hobbies go, metal detectors can be seen as a trivial purchase. Ever buy a good dirt bike? Side by side ATV? Boat, or watercraft, or snowmobile? A big trailer or RV? A top notch gun, or a fine set of golf clubs? Compared to any of this, a new metal detector is nothing really.

So a guy buys one, turns out to have issues with it, or does not like it. Buy and try. Lose a few hundred bucks. Big deal. So I get it, and can't fault anyone for wanting to be the first with a new toy, good or not. Minelab is responsible for their own behavior, it's not our fault.

Yep pretty much how I look at it.  Not only is it a relatively inexpensive hobby, it's also one of the few that pays you back.   Besides if you don't like a detector, they're generally easy enough to resell, sometimes at a premium if you time it right.  But you still got to test it out for less then what you'd rent a Bounty Hunter for from a detector rental outfit.

My cousin's into bass fishing, semi-pro level I guess and he spends butt loads of $$$$$ on his "hobby" not to mention $75-100K every what 5-6 years on a bass boat.  Yeah I'd say we have it pretty good compared to most 👍

[Erik Oostra]

Just from what I've seen so far I'm also ready to leap on the Manticore bandwagon.. Even a slight improvement on the Equinox is a very good thing, an Equinox/CTX crossbred is even better.. I get excited about the little things that the Manticore offers like the vibrating handle or the large coil (something that XP has never delivered on - it's large coil still remains a catalogue show pony), these in themself will make a big difference to me.. This is not to mention the X-Y graphic on the screen together with the target ID, what a great innovation to what has come before.. 

As to waiting for the Manticore to finally be released, I'll bet that it won't be a disappointment like the Dues II was for me.. I think that despite it's heavy price tag the Manticore will turn out to be one of those detectors that'll pay for itself in no time..  

 

 

[Chase Goldman]

59 minutes ago, Erik Oostra said:

I get excited about the little things that the Manticore offers like the vibrating handle or the large coil (something that XP has never delivered on - it's large coil still remains a catalogue show pony), these in themself will make a big difference to me..

Accessory coil support is a fair criticism of XP, not to mention the wireless coils are expensive.  But people sure have short memories (though to be fair you may not have been detecting when Nox was first released or were still cutting your teeth on that counterfeit Gold Bug, Eric).  Despite advertising the accessory coils for Nox early on, it took nearly 7 months to get the 6" coil to market after Nox release and nearly 11 months before the Nox large 12x15 coil could be purchased.  So based on that timetable, XP has another month or two to go before it reaches down to the level of ML's poor accessory coil release record.  3rd party coil support for Nox did finally come two and half years after that. So there's that.  XP will not likely ever have third party coil support.  If ML actually releases all the announced accessory coils when the detector is released that would be a huge and positive development vs. the Nox release.

But ML still has to earn my trust on M-core this time the way they dodged the leaky pod issue and other behavior. 

Eric, presuming ML fixed that leak issue with M-core, do you see that detector ultimately enabling you to dump the disappointing D2 as your dive machine and perhaps also relegating the Nox to backup duty?  In other words, being the true do-it-all machine for your detecting needs?  To me it looks like that will be the case, but not sure how deep you are submerging the D2.  Does M-core's 5 meters submergence depth suffice?  Also, will you be able to get away with no headphones with the vibrating handle?  It could be a real win-win-win machine, if all those attributes are met.