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Grip Angle Adapter


Sinclair

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Yeah, I've used a printed gripstop before, but after an hour or so, I've tended to rest my thumb above the stop on the left side of the detector's case. The foam noodle gives you the advantage, that the machine floats in water 🙂

At first I wanted to build an adjustable adapter, but thats a little bit tricky, if you want to keep the grip as close to the stem as possible. So I came up with the idea of looking at other detectors' grips..

I've changed the angle by 8° at the moment, that seems to be my sweetspot / middle of both angles on the manticore, because the grip has a slightly different form. Maybe I'll try 7°/6° later on for my personal peace 😄

I'm a real monk on ergonomics and headphones 😬

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On 10/30/2022 at 11:11 AM, Sinclair said:

I‘ve finally designed an grip angle adapter. With the adapter, the angle equals approx. the one on the Deus. The hand stays at the middle of the grip, and doesn‘t start to wander up.

Many people have had issues with the screws breaking out of the pod mount, especially water hunters.
I see this only exacerbating the problem. It will increase the movement allowed and put extra force on the screw mounts in the pod.  

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14 hours ago, Sinclair said:

Yeah, I've used a printed gripstop before, but after an hour or so, I've tended to rest my thumb above the stop on the left side of the detector's case. The foam noodle gives you the advantage, that the machine floats in water 🙂

At first I wanted to build an adjustable adapter, but thats a little bit tricky, if you want to keep the grip as close to the stem as possible. So I came up with the idea of looking at other detectors' grips..

I've changed the angle by 8° at the moment, that seems to be my sweetspot / middle of both angles on the manticore, because the grip has a slightly different form. Maybe I'll try 7°/6° later on for my personal peace 😄

I'm a real monk on ergonomics and headphones 😬

I will add one more thought here.  I am of the belief that while there may be a "sweet spot" in terms of grip/handle angle, that differs for each individual, I do think there's an "elephant in the room," here, that is a MUCH bigger issue, and that is, BALANCE.

It is my firm belief that the REAL issue causing folks wrist fatigue/discomfort, is the nose-heaviness of the Equinox (and most other modern detectors).  And here's why I say that.  If you take your wrist, and "cock it," back and forth, like you are loading, and then casting, a fishing pole, it becomes obvious that our wrist is "designed" such that it is "comfortable" at any number of positions.  At rest, with no "load" or "tension" on the wrist, it can sit comfortably at any number of different "angles."  The DISCOMFORT comes, largely, when the wrist is put under LOAD, or STRAIN, especially if that load or strain is sustained for a long period of time.  It is my contention, that the discomfort we feel in our wrists when detecting is PRIMARILY due to the imbalance -- and more specifically -- the "nose-heaviness" of the unit (and the resulting strain on our wrists).  

When swinging a detector, where a large percentage of the weight of the unit sits out at the end of a long "lever" (from a physics perspective), that coil is using "leverage" AGAINST us.  And with no compensating weight at the butt end of the shaft, to lift the coil FOR us, WE are having to do ALL of the work, to lift that coil.  And that work is being done, first and foremost, by our WRISTS.  But, simply LIFTING the coil, is not the issue.  We are ALL strong enough to lift the coil.  The issue is, KEEPING the coil lifted, and floating just above the ground, for hours at a time.  Doing so, places substantial stress, from a "repetitive motion" perspective, on our wrist.  The small muscles of the wrist are not intended to do such repetitive motion, under constant strain/tension.  AND SO, feeling fatigue or pain in the wrist is an absolutely normal, and I would say, expected, result, of swinging a nose-heavy machine -- where we are forced to exert enough CONSTANT force, for long periods of time, to keep the coil floating above the ground.  THAT, I believe strongly, is where the fatigue and discomfort come from.

That is NOT to say that, for any one individual, whose wrist is placed under such constant strain, that there may not be an "angle" that feels better, while other "angles" feel worse.  I am simply saying that I think grip/handle angle is a second-order issue, and a DISTANT second, at that.  I very strongly contend that the FIRST-order issue, is the strain put on our wrists by having to swing a nose-heavy machine, keeping the coil floating, for hours at a time.  And I further contend that with a perfectly balanced machine, in other words, requiring essentially ZERO exertion of the wrist (i.e. the wrist basically "at rest"), the fatigue and discomfort is eliminated.   And thus, I contend, if we were all swinging BALANCED detectors, all the talk about "grip angle" (which has been a topic of discussion for many years -- at LEAST back to when the Minelab Explorer handle angle was, apparently, slightly adjusted on the E-Trac, according to many users) would largely fade away.

So, I will say in conclusion that if you (Sinclair) are a "monk" on ergonomics, I would expect that this logic would make sense to you.  The Equinox (and most other modern machines) are ergonomically, shall I say, "far from ideal," to put it gently.  You simply can't design a machine that puts such a large percentage of the unit's weight out at the end of a long "lever," with no compensating weight at the other end of the machine, and not end up with an ergonomic mess...

Steve

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Yes Steve, it's a conglomerate of many things there.. I've experimented with counterweights to compensate for the nose-heaviness, but it comes with other tradeoffs, which just weren't for me, as a very fast swinger. Hard for me to explain my thoughts at lenght in foreign language, but it's definitely easier to control the weight / downforce with an angled grip, vs 90 degree straight for example. You would need much more clamping force to keep your hand on a straight grip. If you look at the inside of your hand and close your fingers, it naturally forms an angle:

51-EB80-E6-9-BAE-4-F2-F-B118-0-DE905666-

Now try to make that angle 90:

5-E597196-CB04-4-E45-AF9-D-4-F7696-A8054

That puts a lot of stress to my hand + litte and ring finger lose the ability to close completely with full force.

While beeing far from perfect ergonomics wise, it made a hughe difference - at least for me. After analysing the Manticore's grip, I think they've changed it for a reason. They've also designed it to be a little bit conical, which better reflects the natural form of our hands, while the Nox's grip has a more or less consistent diameter.

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17 hours ago, midalake said:

Many people have had issues with the screws breaking out of the pod mount, especially water hunters.
I see this only exacerbating the problem. It will increase the movement allowed and put extra force on the screw mounts in the pod.  

I agree, that the pod mount is suboptimal - hughe leverage force on a small mounting surface. After disassemling the original mount, I've notived my Nox has some small cracks around two of the brass inserts (4,5 Years of HEAVY beach use, mostly 11" coil, short usage of 15" and moderate waterhunting). I don't think that the adapater will exacerbate the problem, perhaps it even lessens it. It's a general design flaw imho. Waterhunting and the use of big coils do the rest..

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9 hours ago, Sinclair said:

Yes Steve, it's a conglomerate of many things there.. I've experimented with counterweights to compensate for the nose-heaviness, but it comes with other tradeoffs, which just weren't for me, as a very fast swinger. Hard for me to explain my thoughts at lenght in foreign language, but it's definitely easier to control the weight / downforce with an angled grip, vs 90 degree straight for example. You would need much more clamping force to keep your hand on a straight grip. If you look at the inside of your hand and close your fingers, it naturally forms an angle:

51-EB80-E6-9-BAE-4-F2-F-B118-0-DE905666-

Now try to make that angle 90:

5-E597196-CB04-4-E45-AF9-D-4-F7696-A8054

That puts a lot of stress to my hand + litte and ring finger lose the ability to close completely with full force.

While beeing far from perfect ergonomics wise, it made a hughe difference - at least for me. After analysing the Manticore's grip, I think they've changed it for a reason. They've also designed it to be a little bit conical, which better reflects the natural form of our hands, while the Nox's grip has a more or less consistent diameter.

Sinclair,

I do not doubt that, with experimentation, you would be able to find a "grip angle" that works best for you, specifically.  In other words, while you are not explicitly resolving the imbalance/nose-heaviness, you ARE finding an angle, for your wrist, where exerting the force to lift the coil causes you the least amount of distress.  SO, I get it, and I applaud you for working to find a solution to your issues.  I was not saying that there's no improvement to be found in changing grip angle, I was only saying that the ULTIMATE source of the issue, is the imbalance of the machine.  But, if you have tried counterweighting and don't like it, then this might be the best solution in your case.

Steve

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Maybe not the best, but greatest effort to impact ratio from the things I've tested so far (for me).
Perhaps I should fiddle with the weights again with that changed angle  - that might give a complete different experience.

I'm curious how the Manti will handle with the new "off the middle" coil mount. That definitely adds some twisting forces at the end of each swing.

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