Request For Experienced Opinions On Detectors With 2-d Graphics

[EL NINO77]

24 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

Good video for the audio performance but I wasn't able to get much from the screen other than VDI numbers.  Any chance of a closeup (still shot would be fine by me) showing us what target graphical info is there?

Honest answer.  (The rest of it was helpful, too.)  I just don't happen to be amongst those of you who grew up relying on tonal richness and haven't been able so far to learn it.  Graphs OTOH, I love 'em!  But I get it -- use what you know works for you.  You don't need to learn a new technique (especially those with a long learning curve) if the ones you already have work.

BTW, the 'experience' I mentioned doesn't mean 'expert'.  The few of you who have answered so far are all experienced to some level, and your posts are providing some of the things I was hoping to read.

at minute 1:57 in the video, a low-conductivity target is tested... take the video window and you can see very well how the target signal is graphically represented... a straight vertical line of the signal means that it is a good fixed target... if the signal graphic is heavily scattered across the screen, this usually means a lower-quality "Non coin" signal, especially for checking the target by sweeping the coil by 90 degrees..

I dug up most /15/..of my 18 best signals.. based on accurate VDI with accurate hodograph graphic display...with Rutus Alter 71 and Rutus Atrex detectors...

[GB_Amateur]

26 minutes ago, EL NINO77 said:

at minute 1:57 in the video, a low-conductivity target is tested... take the video window and you can see very well how the target signal is graphically represented... a straight vertical line of the signal means that it is a good fixed target... if the signal graphic is heavily scattered across the screen, this usually means a lower-quality "Non coin" signal, especially for checking the target by sweeping the coil by 90 degrees.

I took a couple screenshots:

The first has a vertical line segment above the VDI (36).  The second shows a linked line segment.  Am I concentrating on the right information?  The top indicates a promising target; the bottom not so much?

[EL NINO77]

GB_Amateur....Basically, in both cases, it is always a good signal-graph target... a clearly vertical straight line of the signal is the best option..👍...

 

[Steve Herschbach]

2D displays only do one thing as far as I am concerned. Many targets produce multiple target id numbers. Ferrous especially can toss off lots of non-ferrous readings. Yet we generally have detectors that focus on producing one number to rule them all. Sometimes you see just one number, but more often it's a different number on every sweep. We mentally average what we see for a result, but what we are really seeing is the reality of the multiple target id responses.

A good display can show you all the responses that are occuring at the same time, and some can use an accumulator function to focus the effect. In general we have a linear display as seen on the White's Spectrum displays, or the more graphical display used by Minelab. The White's produces target peaks, and the Minelab produces target clusters. Both work well. I tend to lean the White's myself, which is why I still have a DFX. It's most helpful for park type detecting, and basically helps sort round and strong targets from the rest, good for coins and rings. The displays in particular tend to make ferrous more obvious by showing the wide spread of responses from such targets, where non-ferrous tends to be more focused.

My reality is that full tone detecting does the same thing for me while eliminating the need to look at a display of any sort, so I am first and foremost a full tones hunter. Next up would be these types of advanced displays, and in third, just mentally averaging single target id type displays. In my experience, anyone really good at doing any of the three things will do about as well. Over analysing stuff gets in the way of just quickly digging the darn thing and moving on, and only really matters in park and turf type digging scenarios where digging holes of any sort could be frowned on, and keeping holes at a minimum a desired goal.

 

Note how these two targets could have a person digging if all they saw was the single target id number. The display makes the ferrous target obvious. So would dancing numbers on many detectors if the person is paying attention, and better yet, a melody of tones if hunting full tones. Using just a few tones can fake a person out in these cases by forcing multiple tones into just a few preselected tones.

As I noted, I kind of leaned White's for the simplicity of the system, but with them gone I'd sure have no problem going back to the CTX 3030 type system, which is very effective. You get a mini version of that on the new Manticore.

[phrunt]

Very well articulated, I understood that clearly and it's how I've felt about it, I'm a visual person so benefit well from the CTX and it's target trace, I really like it. Full tones not so much, I just don't enjoy it, I've tried but it's not for me.   I prefer a visual display of what I'd be hearing if I was in full tones.  I guess for some the visual display, full tones and target ID's gives them the most info possible but I can live without it.

The Deus XY thing for me so far is ineffective except on shallow targets, I guess that's to be expected as it's target ID's are only any good on shallow targets.  An experienced operator probably listens for the little glint of a good tone in there for their dig indicator on deep good targets.

[GB_Amateur]

I'm seeing a pattern emerge.  It's likely not the whole story, but it does cover a lot of the topic.

Individuals have different skillsets when it comes to interpreting audio signals and video signals.  Those good at audio analysis often do well with the full tone settings on detectors that have that.  For them the visual part may aid in some instances but most of the time it just slows them down.  (Of course they can choose the special cases when they think the visual info will help and otherwise just ignore or start digging.)  Those with less audio accuity don't pick up many of the subtlties of their audio-tuned brethren.  They rely more on the visual side.  I'm one of this latter group.  That's one of the reasons I'm really looking forward to the Manticore.

[Steve Herschbach]

6 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I'm seeing a pattern emerge.  It's likely not the whole story, but it does cover a lot of the topic.

Individuals have different skillsets when it comes to interpreting audio signals and video signals.  Those good at audio analysis often do well with the full tone settings on detectors that have that.  For them the visual part may aid in some instances but most of the time it just slows them down.  (Of course they can choose the special cases when they think the visual info will help and otherwise just ignore or start digging.)  Those with less audio accuity don't pick up many of the subtlties of their audio-tuned brethren.  They rely more on the visual side.  I'm one of this latter group.  That's one of the reasons I'm really looking forward to the Manticore.

I’d say that nails it Chuck. Learning wide open full tones takes both years, and some inherent ability with audio interpretation. A good meter gets a person there much faster and just as well, if not better. I’d remind even a person skilled with a meter to remember the prime directive of metal detecting though - if it sounds good, dig it!

Manticore is interesting in that it’s the first detector to combine both the vibration target alert with a very good 2D meter system. The two together should make it quite effective for a person with complete hearing loss - stone cold deaf - to metal detector very efficiently. Put it all together, tactile feedback, full tonal capability, and excellent meter responses, and you have quite a few inputs for deciding what is or is not a diggable target.

[mcjtom]

Though I've never seen it, based on this description the Spectrum display seems really well thought out and helpful (and fun) especially given the user's control as to what it actually displays.  I think I could understand and use it quite easily.

I'm not sure if I understand how the Manticore 2D display is supposed to be interpreted - what exactly does the vertical scale represent, for instance?  Could someone point me out to a clear explanation?

 

[GB_Amateur]

58 minutes ago, mcjtom said:

I'm not sure if I understand how the Manticore 2D display is supposed to be interpreted - what exactly does the vertical scale represent, for instance?  Could someone point me out to a clear explanation?

steveg has posted a bunch in another thread.  Here's what I think was his first on the subject where he explains how the Minelab FBS detectors give target information with two 'coordinates'.  You may want to browse on down and see what else he and others have to say.  IMO ML's explanation so far has been a bit vague, and as I might have said in that thread, seems like they may be afraid of making things sound too complicated so the use simple explanations.  But the manual hopefully will go into detail.

 

[strick]

10 hours ago, mcjtom said:

I'm not sure if I understand how the Manticore 2D display is supposed to be interpreted - what exactly does the vertical scale represent, for instance?  Could someone point me out to a clear explanation?

 

It looks to be simular to the ctx...vertical (y axis) is ferrous and non ferrous...high and low stuff is in the ferrous ranges..if your in the mid zones your looking like non ferrous. The horizontal (x axis) is going to be the conductivity line....stuff on the left side less conductive...stuff on the right side more conductive. Small piece of aluminum on the left side  half dollar on the right side...  At least that’s how I’m seeing it in the videos. 

When I hunt with the ctx I’m always looking at the screen. When using combined mode in ferrous coin bottle caps will be at the top of the screen while most nails and larger iron will be at the bottom of the screen...good stuff in the middle...I usually toggle back and forth from the disk screen to wide open as you loose some power when in the disk screen. Findmall was a great resource for learning the CTX. You could down load others programs that were already proven. 

Strick