Request For Experienced Opinions On Detectors With 2-d Graphics

[mcjtom]

10 hours ago, strick said:

s...high and low stuff is in the ferrous ranges..if

What's the difference between high and low then, I wonder?

[strick]

2 hours ago, mcjtom said:

What's the difference between high and low then, I wonder?

I would think the type and amount of  ferrous...in the target but this is speculation on my part...

Strick

[steveg]

21 hours ago, strick said:

It looks to be simular to the ctx...vertical (y axis) is ferrous and non ferrous...high and low stuff is in the ferrous ranges..if your in the mid zones your looking like non ferrous. The horizontal (x axis) is going to be the conductivity line....stuff on the left side less conductive...stuff on the right side more conductive. Small piece of aluminum on the left side  half dollar on the right side...  At least that’s how I’m seeing it in the videos. 

Strick 

Yep, spot on...

8 hours ago, strick said:

I would think the type and amount of  ferrous...in the target but this is speculation on my part...

Strick

Yep, basically...

As I understand it, stuff like rusted nails, etc. will be up top (I think), and big iron, like horseshoes, axe heads, etc., will be down low (I think).

Steve

[mcjtom]

I looked at CTX3030 manual trying to figure out what the 2D detecting screen shows, and I'm still not sure what the vertical scale 'ferrous characteristics' actually show.  It seems that its values increase from top to bottom (with the horizontal conductivity scale going traditionally from left to right).  So the way I understand it non-ferrous targets should show on top of the screen with the horizonal courser position showing the increasing conductivity (size in a way) from left to right.  Is that correct?

Is this convention the same in Manticore?  i.e. does the vertical scale have the same meaning, with the increasing ferrous component from top to bottom?  Somehow I was under the impression that in the Manticore screen the non-ferrous targets would display along the middle line, with those showing ferrous characteristics departing from it up and down, but I'm not sure if this is true.  

[phrunt]

He's blanking the iron out pretty good in this teasuretalk,

https://www.minelab.com/anzea/community/treasure-talk/ctx-3030-threshold-blanking

For me most iron is in that bottom right corner that is blocked out, and the very top right corner is the wrap around iron.  The CTX discrimination is awesome, it does loose some depth the more discrimination you use but with it's deadly accurate ID's you an eliminate targets you don't want easily, and with the high resolution target information you can block out each of those tiny little squares individually to remove targets.

[strick]

8 hours ago, mcjtom said:

I looked at CTX3030 manual trying to figure out what the 2D detecting screen shows, and I'm still not sure what the vertical scale 'ferrous characteristics' actually show.  It seems that its values increase from top to bottom (with the horizontal conductivity scale going traditionally from left to right).  So the way I understand it non-ferrous targets should show on top of the screen with the horizonal courser position showing the increasing conductivity (size in a way) from left to right.  Is that correct?

Is this convention the same in Manticore?  i.e. does the vertical scale have the same meaning, with the increasing ferrous component from top to bottom?  Somehow I was under the impression that in the Manticore screen the non-ferrous targets would display along the middle line, with those showing ferrous characteristics departing from it up and down, but I'm not sure if this is true.  

Your going to have to ask the engineers how they can make ferrous top and bottom and non ferrous in the middle. I’m thinking the principal is the same between the ctx and the manticore as that is the way I have been seeing in in the glances I've had at the videos. Your thinking that something in the middle would have a medium ferrous content right? One thing to remember is that there are many forms of iron alloys and the engineers have had to get very creative so as to help us not dig crap all the time. 

On a side note it seemed lots of people loved their etrac and never went on to the ctx presumably due to the price? This manticore is going to be a fine machine as long as it don’t leak...and it makes you wonder what they have going on to replace the ctx? The fun never ends. 

Strick

[JCR]

I have only been reading about the new Manticore & don't have any Minelab background.  I was understanding that the 2 different sections for Ferrous on the 2D screen was to classify small iron from large iron.  Nails vs axe heads or rotten tin for example. Tom D mentioned 99 points of Ferrous range & 99 points for Non Ferrous.  The Ferrous range may be split at some point,  < to one line, > to the other line. The entire Ferrous range would not have to give a TID, just the smaller stuff close to Zero. He made the point that Archeologists/Relic hunters would really benefit from the new tech in the Manticore.

[steveg]

19 hours ago, mcjtom said:

I looked at CTX3030 manual trying to figure out what the 2D detecting screen shows, and I'm still not sure what the vertical scale 'ferrous characteristics' actually show.  It seems that its values increase from top to bottom (with the horizontal conductivity scale going traditionally from left to right).  So the way I understand it non-ferrous targets should show on top of the screen with the horizonal courser position showing the increasing conductivity (size in a way) from left to right.  Is that correct?

Is this convention the same in Manticore?  i.e. does the vertical scale have the same meaning, with the increasing ferrous component from top to bottom?  Somehow I was under the impression that in the Manticore screen the non-ferrous targets would display along the middle line, with those showing ferrous characteristics departing from it up and down, but I'm not sure if this is true.  

mcjtom --

The ferrous numbers on a CTX run from 0 to 35, along the "y-axis," with "0" at the top, and increasing to "35" at the bottom.  HOWEVER, unlike what might seem "logical," a non-ferrous target does NOT register near zero, for its ferrous number, on the CTX, but instead, will read roughly "12."  For whatever reason, Minelab chose to "normalize" the FE number of most non-ferrous targets to read "12."  So, a "good" target on a CTX will generally plot about 1/3 of the way down the screen, at 12 FE -- along what folks call the "12 line" (the horizontal line running left and right across the screen, at the "12" location on the y-axis). 

SO, "good" targets will generally NOT be at the "top" of the screen, as you thought.  Instead, since the FE number of "good" targets is "normalized" to "12" on the CTX, these targets (as noted above) will appear about 1/3 of the way down the screen, on or near the "12" line.   Meanwhile, typically, targets which appear well above the "12" line, near the top of the screen (i.e. ferrous numbers in the single digits), will generally be iron targets.  Silmiliarly, targets well below the "12" line (i.e. ferrous numbers in the upper teens, 20s, and 30s), will also generally be iron targets.

THEREFORE, things will not be entirely different on the Manticore.  Like on the CTX, targets registering near the top of the screen will generally be iron, and targets registering low on the screen will also generally be iron (dependent of course on the accuracy of the discrimination algorithms).  The "middle" of the screen, similar to the "12" line on the CTX, will be where "good" (non-ferrous) targets will usually register (again, depending upon the accuracy of the discrimination algorithms).

Now, on BOTH the CTX AND the Manticore, conductive numbers increase from left to right along the x-axis (as you noted).  This will be easier for most users to interpret.  Low CO numbers (and those with "non-ferrous" indication, thus plotting roughly "centered," from a top to bottom sense, AND near the left-hand side of the screen due to low CO number) will likely be foil-type targets, as one would expect, and high CO numbers (and those with "non-ferrous" indication, thus plotting roughly "centered," from a top to bottom sense, AND near the right-hand side of the screen due to high CO number), will be targets like big silver coins, etc. -- again, as would be expected.

Make sense?

Steve

[OCBeepDigger]

On 11/22/2022 at 5:07 PM, steveg said:

mcjtom --

The ferrous numbers on a CTX run from 0 to 35, along the "y-axis," with "0" at the top, and increasing to "35" at the bottom.  HOWEVER, unlike what might seem "logical," a non-ferrous target does NOT register near zero, for its ferrous number, on the CTX, but instead, will read roughly "12."  For whatever reason, Minelab chose to "normalize" the FE number of most non-ferrous targets to read "12."  So, a "good" target on a CTX will generally plot about 1/3 of the way down the screen, at 12 FE -- along what folks call the "12 line" (the horizontal line running left and right across the screen, at the "12" location on the y-axis). 

SO, "good" targets will generally NOT be at the "top" of the screen, as you thought.  Instead, since the FE number of "good" targets is "normalized" to "12" on the CTX, these targets (as noted above) will appear about 1/3 of the way down the screen, on or near the "12" line.   Meanwhile, typically, targets which appear well above the "12" line, near the top of the screen (i.e. ferrous numbers in the single digits), will generally be iron targets.  Silmiliarly, targets well below the "12" line (i.e. ferrous numbers in the upper teens, 20s, and 30s), will also generally be iron targets.

THEREFORE, things will not be entirely different on the Manticore.  Like on the CTX, targets registering near the top of the screen will generally be iron, and targets registering low on the screen will also generally be iron (dependent of course on the accuracy of the discrimination algorithms).  The "middle" of the screen, similar to the "12" line on the CTX, will be where "good" (non-ferrous) targets will usually register (again, depending upon the accuracy of the discrimination algorithms).

Now, on BOTH the CTX AND the Manticore, conductive numbers increase from left to right along the x-axis (as you noted).  This will be easier for most users to interpret.  Low CO numbers (and those with "non-ferrous" indication, thus plotting roughly "centered," from a top to bottom sense, AND near the left-hand side of the screen due to low CO number) will likely be foil-type targets, as one would expect, and high CO numbers (and those with "non-ferrous" indication, thus plotting roughly "centered," from a top to bottom sense, AND near the right-hand side of the screen due to high CO number), will be targets like big silver coins, etc. -- again, as would be expected.

Make sense?

Steve

Another excellent and thorough explanation from Steve.

I have my Manticore ordered and paid for already. I'm coming from a Nox800 as the only machine I've used to date so while in waiting mode I've been trying to educate myself a bit and understand exactly what the additional info given to us on the 2D screen actually means in real world hunting... your explanation is one of the more concise and understandable explanations I've read to date. Thanks Steve!

btw... repeat customer here 🙂

[steveg]

WalkInH2o, 

THANKS for the very kind words!  I appreciate that, and glad that I've been able to help a bit in giving some degree of better understanding of a 2D "smart screen," to those who have no CTX experience.

And THANK YOU for being a customer -- I appreciate you!

Steve