Minelab Sues Nokta

[Bohemia Miner]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:49 PM, phrunt said:

I doubt you could patent a single LED light on the back of a control box either, it has to be multi frequency technology or it could be something to do with the Gold Finder 2000 being so similar to the Gold Monster 1000.

I love Nokta!  I really do.  So, I hate saying this but the GF2000 and Legend appear to be Minelab "knockoffs".

[Jeff McClendon]

1 hour ago, Bohemia Miner said:

I love Nokta!  I really do.  So, I hate saying this but the GF2000 and Legend appear to be Minelab "knockoffs".

A dealer saying this..........

I can accept that the Legend takes its cue from the Equinox 600/800....so does a lot about Deus 2

The 45 kHz with no manual ground balance and no threshold.........Goldmonster 1000 was released in 2017.

The 56 kHz Makro Gold Racer with all sorts of great features like manual ground balance and an optional threshold tone came out in 2016 followed by the waterproof 61 kHz version called the Gold Kruzer followed by the simplified user interface 61 kHz turn on and go Gold Finder 2000 that lives in virtually the same housing as the Gold Kruzer......

The only similarities between the Gold Monster 1000 and the GoldFinder 2000 are their names, their simplicity and they are for gold prospecting. Whites GMT, Whites/Garrett GM24K and GMX, XP Deus and XP ORX to name a few, all have ferrous/non-ferrous probability meters of one kind or another that are similar to the GM 1000. At least all of those have manual ground balance options and a threshold tone option.....

Give me a break......

[kac]

One reason why you should never do patent searches or filings on your own without a good patent attorney.

[OhioHunter]

Carl made this post on another forum. Worth sharing here.

 

lot of people are opining on this lawsuit without even knowing what the lawsuit is about. The patent in question (US7579839) basically says:

"A metal detector with a switched-voltage transmitter (basically all multifrequency designs) with synchronous demodulators (basically all metal detectors) whereby the user can change frequencies."

The Legend likely infringes this patent, but then so does the Garrett Apex, XP Deus II, White's V3. and probably models from AKA and Rutus. A question comes to mind: why sue NM and not the others? Possibly because NM has made a significant dent in Minelab sales, possibly because they are perceived as being an easier target, or possibly this is a warm-up for the other companies.

The V3 is an interesting case because it would be the first detector to infringe this patent -- the DFX did not, nor did the Fisher CZ, as neither had selectable frequencies. Yet Minelab did not sue White's; they did not even send a cease-&-desist letter (the normal step before filing a lawsuit), I was there at the time. Patent '839 was filed during the development of the V3 and that was in the days of "first to invent" rules, meaning that if White's could show they knew of the concept before the patent was filed, they would be in the clear. And, indeed, that was the case; I recall a development document written by Mark Rowan that predates the patent. If Garrett inherited this document then they can probably fend off a lawsuit as well.

Other companies (like NM) may not be so lucky. If they choose to fight the suit they will have to directly challenge the patent, which ain't easy or cheap. But there's loads of prior art to look at, not only metal detectors but eddy flaw detectors, vending machines, and even slot machines. You'd be surprised at what's been patented that uses the exact same technology as hobby detectors. And then there is the question as to whether '839 even rises to patentability based on whether there was an inventive step or lack of obviousness. And I think that last one would be a winner, as synchronous demodulation that follows the frequency selection has been around for decades. But it may be cheaper for NM to simply agree to a licensing deal with Minelab, especially since the patent expires in 2 years.

Other comments:

• Minelab has been fairly successful in lawsuits, and they now have a boatload of patents to pick from. Some are really good patents, some are really weak.
• Two of the successes came on patent US7310586 (the use of wireless technology in metal detectors) vs White's & XP. It's one of those patents that should have never gotten by the examiner based on obviousness. This is a key problem with the US patent office: examiners who have no idea what they are looking at. It's why prescription drugs cost so much.
• I don't recall that Minelab sued Fisher. The story I heard is they sent a cease-&-desist letter to Fisher, and Fisher replied with evidence that the CZ did not infringe. Minelab went away, no lawsuit.
• The Legend is not a copy of the Equinox. It may imitate the Equinox in many ways but that's been the story of hobby detectors since 1960. All of the Equinox's secrets are in software and NM engineers had to figure out a lot of things in order to get even close to an Equinox. The fact that they did so well in their inaugural MF release is simply incredible.
• Fisher did not invent the concept of MF, neither did Minelab. There is a Westinghouse MF patent from 1972, and another one even earlier than that (don't recall it offhand).
• I don't recall that White's & Garrett sued each other over VLF motion disc, which was invented by George Payne while he was at Bounty Hunter.
• White's sued Payne when he left to create Teknetics, and they lost on a technicality: they failed to have Payne sign a second no-compete agreement when he was re-hired from Bounty Hunter.
• About 2/3rds of Minelab's revenue is from metal detection, and about half of that is from hobby & gold. So, no, it's not a sideline.

 

 

Minelab is a for-profit business and, in fact, publicly traded so its priority is its shareholders. That's true of most companies. If ML can use the patent system to restrict competition and make more money then that's what they should be expected to do. And if they can create a de facto monopoly then, again, expect that, too. Keep in mind that patents aren't forever, they expire after 20 years. But drug companies have been gaming the patent system by making a minor tweak to an expiring patent and getting another 20 years out of it.

Other detector companies can also play this game if they choose. Problem is, most of them are badly lagging ML in R&D and don't have much to patent. Garrett has patents on their ProPointer design that could be used to shut down all the clones but they don't even enforce the patents. I filed several patents at White's and 1 at FTP, probably nothing will ever be done with them. That's the other thing about patents: they only give you the right to sue someone. Doing so has a starting cost of about $100,000 so you better have deep pockets or a guaranteed winning case.

Minelab is playing the corporate game like a real corporation, not a mom&pop garage operation. No, the detecting community doesn't benefit from this a

[strick]

6 hours ago, OhioHunter said:

That's the other thing about patents: they only give you the right to sue someone. 

Yep you can invent something very useful  patent it and someone with deeper pockets can come along and steal the idea..then say go ahead and sue us...happened to an acquaintance of mine...big company stole his idea and now makes them. 

strick 

[Jeff McClendon]

Thanks OhioHunter for posting those remarks by Carl and some of your own too. I generally can take what Carl says "to the bank" and deposit it.

I know this a forum where there is freedom to say what's on one's mind whether it is a topic related statement of possible fact or even opinions, conjecture or just a whim. 

I sometimes react to some of those opinions and whimsical thoughts when I let them rub me the wrong way.

My strong reaction to the insinuation that the Goldfinder 2000 is a clone/copy/knock off of the Goldmonster 1000 is one of those moments where I not only let those comments by Simon and Walt rub me the wrong way, I also reacted to them too strongly even though I still think they were unsubstantiated, out of line and pilling on in regards to Nokta. 

Sorry for letting my sometimes grumpy nature take over. My apologies to Walt and Simon.

[phrunt]

All good Jeff, just trying to guess what Nokta could possibly have done wrong.  If Carl is right it's not sounding too good for Nokta keeping their cheap pricing.  If they have to fight a court battle and end up either pulling the Legend detectors off market or paying Minelab some sort of licensing fee then the price will obviously have to go up to cover these costs.  No better time to buy a Legend than right now.

[Daniel Tn]

I wonder if some of it is in part due to the social media drama between the two.  Both sides took some shots at one another but IMO, Nokta took that to a whole other level via Facebook live videos and such.  I didn't have any skin in that game but it swayed my personal mindset to not buy any more Nokta products.  If there are cases of other companies infringing upon that same patent, like the posts above indicate, and Minelab not going after them...makes me think it's something else they didn't like, and are just using any way they can to get back at Nokta.

[Bohemia Miner]

You're good to go on my side as well, Jeff.  I really like reading your posts.  They're usually spot-on and full of informative content.

I was really trying to find a tactful way of saying what I said about Nokta without stepping on toes, but couldn't come up with anything.  They both are so similar to Minelab's offerings in looks, operation, and features.  On the other hand, I love the competition.  We, the end users, are the winners.

[Aureous]

As I mentioned some time ago, I got direct info stating that ML's lawsuit was regarding the Legend and SMF in particular.  Someone within ML (3rd hand) even suggested that the code for the Demod/mod switching was directly copied via active computer sampling which is a complete headf*ck method of deconstructing code....something that only monumental electronics-guru's  brains are capable of. If true, then NM have some seriously smart guys working for them.