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Full Tones - Discrimination - Iron Tone Question


CPT_GhostLight

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So I was monkeying around in my basement with the D2 yesterday because it seems like it snows every other day now and the ground is hard as concrete and there is surprising low EMI down there. Also if I don't swing a detector for more than 3 days, my right arm curls up in the fetal position and won't respond, so I end up chasing the cat around the house trying to "detect" if he still has his collar on with the D2. 😾

Anyhew, I grabbed a handful of rusty and bent square nails, bottle caps, pull tabs, and a silver dime and a gold ring, and started experimenting with Disc and Notch settings, as well as PWM vs Square audio and  Pitch vs Full tones. I was mainly using various modified Fast and Deep HC programs to test separation and masking which is starting to yield some interesting results. Of course I realize those tests have limited useful data made on top of a box and not buried in my iron hot ground, but why not use my down time to try and learn something and give the cat a break, right?

One thing I found interesting, and maybe everyone else is aware of, is that when I was in a program that had the Discrimination set to a number higher than about 1 or 2 and changed to Full Tones, the iron tone disappeared, but if I switched to Pitch or any of the multi-tones, the iron tones were there. I like to run my Iron Volume at 3 to hear if there is iron co-mingled with targets and I don't really use Full Tones much except on the Sensi.FT program which I almost never use.

I have one Fast program set up with Disc at 8 and Notch from 0.0 to 8, and the Notch blanks out the iron tone (0-8) in Pitch or Full Tones as expected, but I also have a wide open Fast program with Disc at 9 and no Notch and while I get Iron tones in Pitch it is gone in Full tones. When I drop the Disc down to 0.0 in Full tones, iron tones are there.

So I guess my question is this normal for Full Tones or is it a matter of adjusting other parameters? I tried different Silencer and B.Caps settings and combinations, but they didn'y seem to affect that in Full Tones. Am I missing something?

Thanks for reading through this rambling mess if you made it that far. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to fire up the D2 and see if the cat has his collar on. 🙀

 

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That is a good use of your down time.    I'm sure the cat enjoys the attention also.

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19 hours ago, CPT_GhostLight said:

So I guess my question is this normal for Full Tones or is it a matter of adjusting other parameters? I tried different Silencer and B.Caps settings and combinations, but they didn'y seem to affect that in Full Tones. Am I missing something?

Run kitty run!

I don't know the answer to this but thank you for sharing your observations. To me iron tone shouldn't disappear just because you change the tone selection to Full Tones, but I'm far from expert on this machine. I can't help but thinking this is more than a settings issue and might be something that will be addressed in the next update? 

I'm looking out the window at snow as well. Maybe I need to get a cat?

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I noticed that anomaly in full tones while doing a little testing this past summer.  Maybe a future update will fix that.   I hardly ever run full tones and when I do I set the disc at its lowest setting of -6.8 which is maybe why xp has it set that low in program 3 (sensitive full tones).  BTW, I almost always use program 3 to find a clean piece of ground to do a ground balance.  That number then carries over to any custom program I may want to use where I have some discrimination or notching.  

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Good catch.  It's not an anomaly, per se but this has always been the case with full tones (D1 included).  Not sure if XP has a technical reason why Full Tones can't support iron volume with a positive disc setting or if it is a conscious implementation choice.  Regardless, it is why I seldom use full tones>unless I am in a situation where I am good running zero disc or simply using full tones to interrogate/characterize an acquired target.

I like to hear the iron too, but if you use disc>0 there is NO iron volume feature in full tones.  The way disc is implemented by XP on Deus 1/2 makes it important for more than just "silencing" iron.  It helps mitigate ferrous down averaging of adjacent non-ferrous targets and improves the stability and accuracy of the ferrous/non-ferrous target probability/strength bargraph on the horseshoe display.  That is why most D2 programs (except Sensi FT, of course) default to disc set at a minimum of 6.1.

Since I like the performance advantages of using disc AND like to hear the iron, I primarily utilize Pitch audio (PCM) for searching.  This gives a dynamic 2-tone ferrous/non-ferrous target response.  Variable-intensity pitch audio gives a lot of subtle but useful target information (for example, "hollow" and distorted sounding PCM pitch audio is telltale giveaway for large aluminum despite high TID numbers) but requires you to rely on visual target ID to make a dig determination.  

If cherry picking high-conductor non-ferrous, I might go to multi-tones (3 or 5 tones) but rarely do because I am used to pitch (or relic mode) for just about all situations.

Full tones can give additional subtle audio clues regarding the nature of the target, so I have that programmed in as an adjacent program for target interrogation but I seldom search with it.

FWIW HTH HH

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Poor cat. 🙄 If I chased my dog around with the 13" coil he'd be traumatized. He always "inspects" my gear when I get back from detecting to "read the news" about where I've been. 😀

I noticed this too when I changed my general program to square audio and full tones, and when I went to 00 disc the iron tones showed up. Any iron below 00 disappears 🤔 

I run iron audio at 4 using the backphones so I can hear it when it's windy. This "feels" like horseshoe mode on the Equinox, and as I've mentioned, depth is indicated by audio level. I find that to be preferable to the horseshoe depth indicator, while none are "measured" like the Equinox does in 2" increments on its gauge, at least I can tell if aluminum is right on top.

I'm using General right now because it supposedly has "Conductive soil subtraction". I can see the use for SensiFT to ground balance NC, but since I have extremely mild soil (no bars and 79 GB in most places) and it's almost always wet this time of year. I think it breaks the "Halo" effect and gives you a more accurate ID.

I think I got hooked on this audio using the BH-1 headphones. 😀

BTW my wife bought an extremely small 14k gold chain and name tag for our granddaughter, I stole it for a few to wave the Deus over it, first the chain which is probably one of the smallest I've seen, it hit up to ~6" in an air test at 50 ID. The name plate was a 54. I think that will be good at the beach but I'll have to try it in Beach sensitive.

 

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1 hour ago, F350Platinum said:

I'm using General right now because it supposedly has "Conductive soil subtraction". I can see the use for SensiFT to ground balance NC, but since I have extremely mild soil (no bars and 79 GB in most places) and it's almost always wet this time of year. I think it breaks the "Halo" effect and gives you a more accurate ID.

Good point.

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1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Good catch.  It's not an anomaly, per se but this has always been the case with full tones (D1 included).  Not sure if XP has a technical reason why Full Tones can't support iron volume with a positive disc setting or if it is a conscious implementation choice.  Regardless, it is why I seldom use full tones>unless I am in a situation where I am good running zero disc or simply using full tones to interrogate/characterize an acquired target.

I like to hear the iron too, but if you use disc>0 there is NO iron volume feature in full tones.  The way disc is implemented by XP on Deus 1/2 makes it important for more than just "silencing" iron.  It helps mitigate ferrous down averaging of adjacent non-ferrous targets and improves the stability and accuracy of the ferrous/non-ferrous target probability/strength bargraph on the horseshoe display.  That is why most D2 programs (except Sensi FT, of course) default to disc set at a minimum of 6.1.

Since I like the performance advantages of using disc AND like to hear the iron, I primarily utilize Pitch audio (PCM) for searching.  This gives a dynamic 2-tone ferrous/non-ferrous target response.  Variable-intensity pitch audio gives a lot of subtle but useful target information (for example, "hollow" and distorted sounding PCM pitch audio is telltale giveaway for large aluminum despite high TID numbers) but requires you to rely on visual target ID to make a dig determination.  

If cherry picking high-conductor non-ferrous, I might go to multi-tones (3 or 5 tones) but rarely do because I am used to pitch (or relic mode) for just about all situations.

Full tones can give additional subtle audio clues regarding the nature of the target, so I have that programmed in as an adjacent program for target interrogation but I seldom search with it.

FWIW HTH HH

Thank you, Chase! I have been using Pitch for searching and love it for stopping me in my tracks on potential good targets. Coming from the Nox, I naturally gel with Square audio, but have been trying to train my ears with PWM audio and I'm starting to get the hang of it. I do like Full Tones in PWM for interrogating the size and conductivity of targets but the missing Iron tones threw me. I suppose since I get the iron tones with my Pitch program, I don't necessarily need iron tones in Full Tones just to interrogate. Thanks for your insights!

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1 hour ago, Dan Fox said:

I thought 0.71 added iron volume to full tones?

Actually it was added in the 0.70 update, but we've discovered it only works if the Discrim setting is 0 or lower.

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