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Deus 2 Vs Manticore. Relic Hunting In Hot Dirt.


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28 minutes ago, abenson said:

I had the same issue with the Tarsacci, gave it two chances and eventually sold them both. Only way to run it in hot dirt is in mixed mode and circle the target. The audio just doesn't do it for me, so much easier just to use a PI. I got to the point that it was easier just to grab a PI when the targets got out of reach for a VLF.

Condor and I both gave the Tarsacci a good go in highly mineralized ground full of trash and gold. We both came to exactly the same conclusion you did.

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Great comparison hunt. I wish Minelab hadn't made the Manticore like the Equinox. I loved the Equinox in the water but wasn't a fan of it relic hunting. I would like to see a wired Deus 2 also.

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After learning more about the Manticore from this excellent topic started by Daniel, I realize now that what I wrote below about how I setup an Equinox in relation to the Manticore is pure drivel.

I would just skip right over this entire post.

I am learning that in some situations the Manticore is a lot like the Equinox. In some others it seems to be very different.

Reading your account of this accidental head to head hunt made me wonder a few things.

So, when I am hunting for small sub gram nuggets in 4 to 5 bar F75 dirt with Deus 1/ORX Goldfield or with an Equinox using Gold 1 or Gold 2, I am setup wide open, all targets accepted, 1 tone VCO audio and reactivity somewhere in the middle like 2.5 on Deus and 5 on the Equinox so I can get less of a look at the ground and more of a look at tiny ferrous and non ferrous targets in the surface to 4" or so depth range. Most of these gold targets will read like they are mostly iron unless they are on or near the surface.

You instead, are hunting for 3/4 to to 1 ounce targets at 4" or deeper in 4 to 5 bar F75 dirt. 

I don't know much about the Manticore at all. I just look at the features and the default settings in the manual. I know plenty about Deus 2, especially its Relic and Goldfield modes.

Manticore All Terrain General default disc pattern is +5 to 99 with the entire iron target range and the borderline ferrous/non ferrous IDs 0 to 4 rejected, 5 tone Normal audio and recovery speed 5.  If I used those settings at my 4 to 5 bar F75 gold prospecting sites I would not hear a peep on sub gram gold or anything else unless it was big and near the surface.

Deus 2 Relic mode even with disc set at 4 (still have 4 to 25 which are all iron IDs and the borderline ferrous non ferrous IDs 25 to 30 accepted) is already a big improvement over Manticore's All Terrain General defaults, and reactivity is 1, audio response 5 and audio is one tone VCO. With those settings, I would hear larger targets easily at my 4 to 5 bar F75 gold prospecting sites and might even hear one gram to multi gram nuggets. Bullets for sure would be easy to detect unless they were way deeper than 4 to 6".

I did a little testing using some target free dirt that shows 10 of 12 bars on Deus 2 so really bad dirt iron wise. 

Deus 2, 9" coil in default Relic mode and Equinox 900, 10X5" Coiltek coil in Field 2, all targets accepted, depth tone audio (2 tone VCO) and recovery speed 2 had almost identical results on a 3/4 ounce Maxi Ball at 7" depth. There were plenty of 4 way iron audio and target ID responses with intermittent non ferrous audio responses with jumpy target IDs between 50 and 99. When I bumped up Equinox Field 2's recovery speed to 5, the audio was much weaker, really choppy and sporadic. Equinox 900 in Gold 1 with all targets accepted, 1 tone VCO audio and recovery speed 2 or 3 had similar results to Deus 2 default Relic mode.

I also tried Deus 2 in default General and got next to nothing over the Maxi Ball until I opened up the discrimination pattern to add all of the iron target IDs and lowered reactivity to 1.

I hope you will try the Manticore again at that site with settings that are more similar to Deus 2 Relic mode just to see if there is any hope of improvement.

I never had many good results with a CTX 3030 at highly iron mineralized sites. Maybe I was just not adept at using it correctly. Anyway, I have had very little interest in the Manticore based on my CTX experiences, so I am definitely not being an apologist for Minelab's Manticore by writing all this. I am very happy with my Deus 2 and my Equinox 800 and 900. 

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My Virginia hot dirt relic machine journey:  I first started out with a used ATX and my original Deus.  The ATX was a tank and I migrated to a second hand GPX 4800.  I eventually got an Equinox 800 and then an Orx to backup my Deus.

A few years back, I picked up a Tarsacci.   It proved itself as a good change of pace hot dirt machine I knew could get it done when the GPX got too heavy on marathon detecting days. The  Equinox 800 was iffy in hot dirt. I could get the Deus 1 to work marginally OK in hot dirt in Gold Field mode.  But Tarsacci still beat both of them in highly mineralized soil.  However, the level of tweaking, tuning, and basically black magic guesswork required was a lot for something that was at the end of the day just a ferrous go/no go machine with less depth than a PI and that I could never get to work well unmasking in machine-gun iron and was a nightmare in modern non-ferrous trash. 

Along came the D2.  I am adept now at working my D2 in just about all situations.  No, it will not go as deep as the Tarsacci in hot soil, but it will go deep enough, is light weight, can move seamlessly from wide open fields, to picking its way through in high target density situations to unmask keepers whether it's in Machine gun iron, can slaw hell, or a combination of both.   I personally have no issues with it for light duty beach and water hunting but understand its limitations and hassles for dedicated, hard-core water hunters and for those that have to reconfigure the antenna claptrap going from land to water.  I have the luxury of having a dedicated beach/water variant with SteveG's excellent CF shaft system, but obviously that is not an option for most due to cost.  I embrace the advantages of XP's modular wireless platform - multiple "lite" configuration options that can enable instant backup detectors for guests or if a component fails in the field or on a trip.  The ability to hold the coil/lower shaft in your hand to scan the vertical wals of a cellar hole, hut, or pit like a pinpointer on steroids that can provide target IDs.  My main complaint - no compatible 10x5 coil variant for the D2 like that which was available on the D1.  

I upgraded to the Nox 900 because the improvements over the 800 were worth it IMO, especially the improved ergonomics and the deep pitch audio option for all modes (not just Gold).  Having a little bit of an issue with Target ID stability with the expanded scale and some odd EMI issues on the 900, but unless XP comes out with a 10x5 coil for the D2, I'm hanging on to the 900 for now to backup the D2 and feel the Manticore is simply redundant to the D2/900 combo, and even then has some shortcomings.

I am also trying to see if I can finally bond with the Legend now that it has small elliptical coils.  Legend will serve as a second backup as it seems more EMI immune than the 900 and has some features even the 900 still doesn't have (mineralization meter, more sophisticated/adaptable filtering, and now 3 MF profiles per Park/Field modes vs. the Nox's 2).  Its software is being actively upgraded and its also $1000 less than Manticore and the non-light variant of the D2 (a fact which cannot be ignored) making it perhaps the best value around.

At the end of the day I feel the ground (hot or mild) is just more transparent when I'm swinging the D2 for coins and relics.  Especially in Relic mode which is my primary search mode.  I can hear and process every grunt, zip, and whisper.  I have set up custom configurations of 3 of the "discrimination" base programs (General, Sensitive/Fast, Deep HC) to somewhat emulate relic mode by using pitch target audio and use those to sometimes interrogate iffy signals encountered by Reluc mode.

Next up will likely be the Axiom which might just finally obsolete my Tarsacci and perhaps the GPX as well.

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A well known “surf church Sunday” good friend of mine, took his Manticore on its maiden voyage today in the dirt. Way to go Max! Moderator, move to different Minelab forum if you chose so please.

6A45CBA2-A288-43AE-B291-C91B77AAAB62.jpeg

9264952E-349D-4426-AF5C-E467323983DB.jpeg

9441D0C7-DA91-404E-8BAF-82720AE7BAA8.jpeg

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17 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Reading your account of this accidental head to head hunt made me wonder a few things.

So, when I am hunting for small sub gram nuggets in 4 to 5 bar F75 dirt with Deus 1/ORX Goldfield or with an Equinox using Gold 1 or Gold 2, I am setup wide open, all targets accepted, 1 tone VCO audio and reactivity somewhere in the middle like 2.5 on Deus and 5 on the Equinox so I can get less of a look at the ground and more of a look at tiny ferrous and non ferrous targets in the surface to 4" or so depth range. Most of these gold targets will read like they are mostly iron unless they are on or near the surface.

You instead, are hunting for 3/4 to to 1 ounce targets at 4" or deeper in 4 to 5 bar F75 dirt. 

I don't know much about the Manticore at all. I just look at the features and the default settings in the manual. I know plenty about Deus 2, especially its Relic and Goldfield modes.

Manticore All Terrain General default disc pattern is +5 to 99 with the entire iron target range and the borderline ferrous/non ferrous IDs 0 to 4 rejected, 5 tone Normal audio and recovery speed 5.  If I used those settings at my 4 to 5 bar F75 gold prospecting sites I would not hear a peep on sub gram gold or anything else unless it was big and near the surface.

Deus 2 Relic mode even with disc set at 4 (still have 4 to 25 which are all iron IDs and the borderline ferrous non ferrous IDs 25 to 30 accepted) is already a big improvement over Manticore's All Terrain General defaults, and reactivity is 1, audio response 5 and audio is one tone VCO. With those settings, I would hear larger targets easily at my 4 to 5 bar F75 gold prospecting sites and might even hear one gram to multi gram nuggets. Bullets for sure would be easy to detect unless they were way deeper than 4 to 6".

I did a little testing using some target free dirt that shows 10 of 12 bars on Deus 2 so really bad dirt iron wise. 

Deus 2, 9" coil in default Relic mode and Equinox 900, 10X5" Coiltek coil in Field 2, all targets accepted, depth tone audio (2 tone VCO) and recovery speed 2 had almost identical results on a 3/4 ounce Maxi Ball at 7" depth. There were plenty of 4 way iron audio and target ID responses with intermittent non ferrous audio responses with jumpy target IDs between 50 and 99. When I bumped up Equinox Field 2's recovery speed to 5, the audio was much weaker, really choppy and sporadic. Equinox 900 in Gold 1 with all targets accepted, 1 tone VCO audio and recovery speed 2 or 3 had similar results to Deus 2 default Relic mode.

I also tried Deus 2 in default General and got next to nothing over the Maxi Ball until I opened up the discrimination pattern to add all of the iron target IDs and lowered reactivity to 1.

I hope you will try the Manticore again at that site with settings that are more similar to Deus 2 Relic mode just to see if there is any hope of improvement.

I never had many good results with a CTX 3030 at highly iron mineralized sites. Maybe I was just not adept at using it correctly. Anyway, I have had very little interest in the Manticore based on my CTX experiences, so I am definitely not being an apologist for Minelab's Manticore by writing all this. I am very happy with my Deus 2 and my Equinox 800 and 900. 

Don't think I kept either detector in one mode without trying other settings or search modes.  After all, it is a giant 160 year old test garden. That's where I like to go to learn. 

In the Goldfield mode, the audio is different but the default ferrous upper limit is 6. The bullets want to come in at the upper ferrous zone. If you run All Terrain General, the default upper ferrous limit is 9.  The bullets want to come in at what would be the 7-8 upper ferrous range.  You can open that up and hear them but your also opening up all the iron that falls within that range too.  On the D2 I used Relic mode as a starter program but then figured out General mode was just as good. I was more impressed with the ID than anything without having to do any elaborate setting changes.

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2 hours ago, Daniel Tn said:

Don't think I kept either detector in one mode without trying other settings or search modes.  After all, it is a giant 160 year old test garden. That's where I like to go to learn. 

In the Goldfield mode, the audio is different but the default ferrous upper limit is 6. The bullets want to come in at the upper ferrous zone. If you run All Terrain General, the default upper ferrous limit is 9.  The bullets want to come in at what would be the 7-8 upper ferrous range.  You can open that up and hear them but your also opening up all the iron that falls within that range too.  On the D2 I used Relic mode as a starter program but then figured out General mode was just as good. I was more impressed with the ID than anything without having to do any elaborate setting changes.

That’s interesting, Dan.  Are you saying the Minie balls are popping up off  the centerline on the 2D display - weird since they are pure non-ferrous with some oxidation>Soil mineralization effect?  Also, does the centerline offset (and/or conductive ID) for the Minie’s change with Mode selection or is it just that the ferrous limits profile is changing when you switch modes such that the bullets get masked by the ferrous limits?  Sometimes there’s some benefit to the “simplicity” of the D2.  Yes, that’s just a tongue-in-cheek, good natured poke for all those who say the D2 is too complex.  :smile:

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Daniel,

I know this may seem counter-intuitive, but have you tried lowering the sensitivity on the MC? 29 may be too high for hot dirt. Back in the day, I used to use an old White's when visiting my cousins in Winchester VA. In that red dirt, lowering the sensitivity was key to getting good results. Just a thought.

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I just buy them all like an idiot. They all are a pleasure to swing and it is kinda fun to work over an area then  go back to the truck and pull out another detector and do it all over again...detector junkie thats me 🤣

strick

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