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Why Pay More For A Metal Detector With Better Id?


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Hi everyone, I hope someone can help me in understanding this.

In all the forums we are told "If you go for gold you need to dig it all". And it says that – depending on ground conditions and depth plus surrounding targets – you may never be sure if it is aluminum or gold catching your detectors attention.

IF this is true, why should anyone invest in gear like a Minelab CTX 3030 (which is what I am about to do...). Why not a simple Garrett AT PRO.... and why not a PI machine?

I am aware of higher freqs = better for gold, lower freqs = more depth. And I am aware that every product has it's special strengths. But this does not answer the blunt question for me of why investing in fantastic ID capabilities if it's not worth it in practice.

Thanks much for your piece of advice!

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54 minutes ago, Zampano said:

why should anyone invest in gear like a Minelab CTX 3030

I may not be the best person to answer this question but here are my thoughts:

   For most, if they can afford it, a PI detector is the recommended machine for nuggetshooting.  It will for the most part find deeper gold especially in mineralized ground.  

However, though some PI machines have a so called discrimination capability it's a bit suspect especially when it comes to gold so most recommend digging it all with a PI machine.  

A good VLF machine has a more reliable discrimination capability so many who own a PI machine also purchase a second detector  (VLF) both as a back up and to work those places where much trash exists and you really don't want to dig it all.  A 3030 is a great machine and is great for weeding though iron but generally not the preferred machine as a back up gold detector.  It just doesn't have the sensitivity of a dedicated gold detector.  Most will use something like a Gold bug variant, a Gold Racer or a Exterra 705.  Though there are other's to choose from as well.  

Hope this helps.

Terry 

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Thanks Terry 

Fully agree on all you point out. Still, if looking at a "general purpose VLF detector" (not so hot on gold). Why will a 3030 be the better choice than a cheaper VL, if everybody tells me, you may not rely on the ID, not even with the 3030? I much like the TX but I do not understand why it should be any better than a Makro Racer in practice... If it's just for waterproof, there are also cheaper models in the same freqency ranges.

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2 hours ago, Zampano said:

But this does not answer the blunt question for me of why investing in fantastic ID capabilities if it's not worth it?

The fact is very few people want to go out and simply dig all the metal out of the ground. There are of course people who say "dig everything" but there are very few who actually dig every target they encounter. Even people with all metal dig it all detectors like a PI will often pass on signals that "don't sound right" now and then.

Dig everything tends to come mostly from prospectors and beach hunters. However when prospecting you can certainly find places littered with thousands of ferrous trash targets like nails and rusted can bits. Many "dig it all" hunters simply walk away from places like that. Dig everything at the beach sounds great until you find a beach with thousands of hair pins and bottle caps.

I am probably as cognizant of the dangers of discrimination as most anyone, but I employ discrimination on a regular basis. With the exception of some relic hunters who target ferrous items most detectorists would be happy with a detector that rejects all ferrous targets - and does so accurately.

When it comes to discrimination beyond that there are several factors. Time is a big factor because none of us has unlimited time. If a good find lurks in hundreds or thousands of trash targets, do you have time to dig everything? In two hours I can only dig so many targets and I need to help insure they are the right ones.

There is physical health and stamina. Not everyone can dig thousands of targets on end and instead have to pick and choose before they get too tired.

There are environmental issues - in a groomed park or yard holes must be kept at an absolute minimum.

And what about fun? Not everyone enjoys digging junk. Give a new person a detector, and if all they do is dig junk for hours they will most likely decide detecting is boring and stupid.

Here is a specific personal example. I am gearing up for beach detecting again. My go to machine is the Garrett ATX and in general I prefer to dig everything. However, if I get in real rough surf conditions recovering targets is very difficult. I am after jewelry, and coins are a major trash target. Most rings respond on the ATX with a hi-lo tone. Coins except nickels and zinc pennies have a lo-hi tone. If I am trying to up my odds with the ATX and jewelry I will dig only hi-lo tones. I may miss a very large men's gold ring or silver rings, but I will get most of what I am after with fewer holes dug.

Some beaches are littered with hair pins (bobby pins), bottle caps, and certain aluminum items, like the flip top on cans that people love to tear off and discard. What's up with that? My CTX 3030 allows me to easily identify and pass on these items when they become so prevalent as to be a huge waste of time. 

It really all does boil down to time. Yes, discrimination can cause missed targets. On the other hand, it can change the ratio of trash to treasure dug to be in ones favor. I can dig 99 trash items and one good item in 100 holes. Or I can dig 80 trash items and 20 good items. I can even dig 80 good items and 20 trash items.

What are you looking for, how much trash is there, and how much time do you have for detecting? How much of that time can you devote to digging trash? The answers to those questions determine just how much value a good discriminating detector has for you. There is no right or wrong answer as it just depends on what it is we each want to achieve when metal detecting. I can promise you that for the majority of people, digging huge amounts of trash is not one of the goals.

One last note however. For me it is all strategy and site definition. On a busy beach I might employ some discrimination to eliminate the most troublesome items. But if the there is a volleyball net on the beach, I have to dig every target in its vicinity. The beach as a whole has lots of trash and few rings as well as being of unlimited size. The volleyball location has better odds of lost jewelry, so concentrating more on it and digging all targets has better odds of success there.

If nugget detecting a really trashy area I might start with a VLF to eliminate ferrous items. But if I hit a nugget, the area where the nugget was found gets hit with a dig it all mentality. Judging the site and your odds is a big factor in being successful while metal detecting.

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1 minute ago, Zampano said:

Still, if looking at a "general purpose VLF detector" (not so hot on gold). Why will a 3030 be the better choice than a cheaper VL, if everybody tells me, you may not rely on the ID, not even with the 3030? I much like the TX but I do not understand why it should be any better than a Makro Racer in practice... If it's just for waterproof, there are also cheaper models in the same freqency ranges.

Steve just popped up I see so he can answer your question better than I.

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19 minutes ago, Zampano said:

Thanks Terry 

Fully agree on all you point out. Still, if looking at a "general purpose VLF detector" (not so hot on gold). Why will a 3030 be the better choice than a cheaper VL, if everybody tells me, you may not rely on the ID, not even with the 3030? I much like the TX but I do not understand why it should be any better than a Makro Racer in practice... If it's just for waterproof, there are also cheaper models in the same freqency ranges.

What people try and explain and warn is that you should not consider discrimination as being 100% accurate. That does not mean never use it. Understanding the limitations of your tools can present you with opportunities to exploit. Knowing targets overlap and which you can ignore and which you must dig to get desired results is a skill bordering on art when it comes to metal detecting.

If you want the best ability to learn to identify targets prior to digging a CTX 3030 is hard to beat. The audio combined with the color screen depiction of targets makes it very easy to identify items like bottle caps that other VLF detectors struggle with. It gets my vote for best discrimination system currently available.

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12 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

If you want the best ability to learn to identify targets prior to digging a CTX 3030 is hard to beat. The audio combined with the color screen depiction of targets makes it very easy to identify items like bottle caps that other VLF detectors struggle with. It gets my vote for best discrimination system currently available.

Well said Steve.

As a all around detector it's hard to beat on several levels.  I am just starting to get used to mine but very quickly have learned how well it sorts out iron at the beach.  I still dig some pull tabs and bottle caps but just having the iron nearly eliminated is huge.  

Another plus for the 3030 is the fact that it's multifrequency so generally detects deeper especially in the salt and no worries about detecting in the rain or on the beach with it being waterproof.  

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Thx much guys, much appreciated – I think I got the point.

@Steve Regarding these alumininum ring-pulls: Are you saying that with the 3030 it would be possible to distinguish these from a small gold-item?

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You cannot tell a gold ring from aluminum that reads just the same. So if a specific ring reads identical to a certain type of pull tab, and you tune that pull tab out, you will miss that ring.

However, a certain tab, like the flip tab currently used on soda and beer cans, reads in a very specific range on a metal detector. About 12-16 on the CTX 3030. That means you can eliminate this tab and all rings that read lower or higher than the tab will still be found. Rings read all over the place depending on size, shape, and purity of the gold. Eliminating one specific type of tab gets rid of all those tabs, but you only miss rings that read exactly the same, and the odds are the vast majority to rings will read differently.

The idea is not to do this as a rule, but to reserve discriminating out certain items for areas where they are overwhelming in number compared to the time available to dig.

I will do up as detailed post on rings and tabs etc as start of another thread when I get time.

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