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I will start be saying is has been a pretty good year already with the release of several detectors.  With out sounding too impatient, I would love to see Fisher release a new muti-frequency or PI type detector soon.  What are your thoughts of this happening with the next couple of months?? 

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The people who know won't say, and all the rest of us can do is guess. I will say I don't know. At this point I won't even bother guessing. All the price cutting and lineup shuffling does seem like they are making room at the top end for something. But next few months, end of year, early next year - who knows? These days wise money bets on later rather than sooner with any of the manufacturer's.

2015 Fisher Rumors

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Reviewing that thread you linked above, here is something you (Steve) said 23 months ago, regarding the rumored Fisher CZX:

"We seriously need something that brings gold detector weights and prices back to earth and so hopefully this will be it."

And we all here know that in the meantime there have been a few 'somethings' that fit this description, just not from First Texas.

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After the Fisher CZX, my wish list includes a suped up White's TDI SL or a stripped down Garrett ATX (about gave up on that, made my own), or a Nokta PI.

Whites has the ergonomics and price right with the TDI SL but it lacks punch. The ATX has the horsepower but poor ergonomics priced too high (we need under 4 lbs and under $2K). Nok/Mak has stated they are working on PI but that's all we know.

I guess while I am wishing I may as well wish for a Minelab GPX 2000 (integrated battery, under 4 lbs, under $2K) or a SDC 1500 (same deal).

Recalculating, recalculating, recalculating.........

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13 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Whites has the ergonomics and price right with the TDI SL but it lacks punch.

Does the TDI Pro model (AFAIK, currently out of production) fit the requirements?  I know some people feel that just upping the battery voltage on the TDI/SL will deliver more sensitivity, but I wonder if that is enough to even bring it up to the level of the TDI Pro.

 

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Certainly part of the problem with the TDI SL is that is is regarded as a less powerful detector than the original TDI and TDI Pro. I think a lot of people, including myself, were hoping that the original TDI would progress more rapidly into something that competed more aggressively with the Minelab models. There was a sense of White's getting into the race late as the underdog, but hopes this well respected U.S. manufacturer would show up that upstart company from Australia. Anybody that ever followed my TDI posts from day one can sense that was where I was pushing. We had the TDI, then the TDI Pro, and when the TDI SL came out I think people were hoping for an improved TDI Pro in the smaller, lighter package. Instead, the TDI SL seemed a step down in horsepower, leaving many White's fans expressing disappointment when it was released. And certainly nobody thought that was it, game over. A waterproof model was literally begged for by the fan base, to no avail. Now that the other TDI models have been dropped, the TDI SL is all that remains.

I envision people out there with a popular VLF prospecting machine like the Gold Bug Pro, GMT, AT Gold, etc. These machines all sell for around $700 and weigh 2.5 - 3.9 lbs. They would like to add a ground balancing PI (GBPI) to what they have. I think that for "normal people" with normal budgets a machine under $2K and under four pounds just makes sense. It would be more than twice what they spent for their VLF, and in this day and age there is no reason why a decent PI should weigh over 4 lbs.

Personally, I think the White's TDI SL is a very sweet machine ergonomically. About 3.5 well balanced pounds, built in speaker, drop in battery pack. The price brand new with two year warranty right now is fantastic - I am seeing them advertised at $1089.00 now, down from $1189.00.

Ergonomically and pricewise only the TDI SL currently hits my desired under 4 lb under $2K category. The ATX at $2120 is nearly twice the price and at 6.9 lbs nearly twice the weight!! Kind of ridiculous and a source of never ending frustration for me. Why?

Let's use what I call the Minelab rating scale. Details here.

1. Minelab SD 2000 - crude first version, very poor on small gold, excellent on large deep gold

2. Minelab SD 2100 - vastly refined version of SD 2000

3. Minelab SD 2200 (all versions) - adds crude iron disc, ground tracking

4. Minelab GP Extreme - adds greatly improved sensitivity to small gold, overall performance boost.

5. Minelab GP 3000 - Refined GP Extreme

6.  Minelab GP 3500 - Greatly refined GP 3000, last and best of analog models

7. Minelab GPX 4000 - First digital interface, rock solid threshold

8. Minelab GPX 4500 - Refined GPX 4000, solid performer

9. Minelab GPX 4800 - Released at same time as GPX 5000 as watered down version

10. Minelab GPX 5000 - Culmination of the series, current pinnacle of GBPI prospecting machine technology.

All Minelab models leverage an existing base of over 100 coil options from tiny to huge.

I am a very practical person when it comes to prospecting. I know all the existing models and options by all brands very well, perhaps better than almost anyone. The way I look at it is this. If I personally were to plan to go to Australia for one month, and needed a GBPI detector, considering machines past and present, what would I take and in what order of choice? Put aside concerns of age, warranty, etc. just assume functioning detectors.

Here is the issue in a nutshell. On the Minelab scale of one to ten as listed above, I would be generous in rating the TDI SL as a 2. Same with the Garrett Infinium. If I was going to spend a month of my time and a lot of money going on a prospecting trip to Australia, I would choose a TDI in any version over the SD 2000. I might go with a TDI Pro over a SD 2100 but I would have to think real hard about that, and push came to shove I would go SD 2100 were it not for the realities of age I said to ignore. A newer TDI Pro might be a better bet than a very old SD 2100 from a reliability standpoint, but again, this would be a tough choice. The TDI SL not really. I would be shooting myself in the foot to go on this hypothetical trip with a TDI SL instead of a SD 2100.

You see the problem now?

The Garrett ATX fares better. I would rate it a 3, roughly analogous to the SD 2200 variants. Still an agonizing choice really and the ATX being new versus SD 2200 being old might again be the tipping point, but from a pure prospecting options perspective the case can be made that the SD 2200 might be the better way to go.

That's it folks. That is reality. The best of the best that the competition can offer can only go solidly up against models Minelab has not made in years. I am not saying that to be mean or as some kind of Minelab toadie, that is my pure unvarnished opinion as a guy who is pretty well versed on the subject.

Let's bring it all home. This person with the $700 machine really, really wants that under 4 lb, under $2K GBPI machine, but if they do their homework they discover that truthfully, they would be better off shopping for a used Minelab than what the competition offers new. With the TDI SL rated as a 2 the ATX in a much lighter box at under $2K is a solid win as a 3. A well designed ATX with standard dry land coils would look very enticing as compared to the GP series Minelab's and with a stronger battery system might rate 4 to 6 on my comparative scale. But Garrett refuses to budge!

White's can certainly do something, anything to improve the TDI SL. A battery that lasts all day would be a good start. In the end they are limited by the basic single channel design of the machine. The SD 2000 dual channel design was literally the answer to and the improvement on the single channel technology used in the TDI, the basics of which predate the SD 2000. Still, White's currently owns the under 4 lb under $2K GBPI category so they have the first out of the starting gate advantage. Anything they do would at the very least just show they have not given up.

The Minelab MPS patent that formed the basis of the SD series has expired. Not sure about DVT, which formed the basis of the GP series. Where is the competition? What the heck is going on here? Much gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair is going on here, that's what!!!

That is my challenge to the manufacturers. Under 4 lbs, under $2K, on the 1-10 scale I am offering, what is the best you can do?

The TDI SL as a 2? Really? Yes, really, that is currently the best of the best in the brand new ground balancing PI, full warranty, under 4 lb, under $2k category. The White's TDI SL takes the crown; the rest of you should be hanging your heads in shame.

whites-tdi-sl-metal-detector-with-12-coil.jpg

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Whoa...I just guessed that exact thing as my guess for what Garrett was coming out with. Hybrid VLF/PI at the flip of a switch.

Another approach that might be interesting, if only marginally functional, is a VLF/PI at the same time. Something I wanted to try building for a long time, but I'm never going to have the time to try I might as well admit to myself and type the idea here. Basically, waves are additive. There is no reason you can't modulate a sine wave on top of a pulse, and we have computing power to do the signal processing on something like that nowadays with an ARM chip. You should be able to look fast enough and see shifts from the sine wave, then listen again for the pulse delay. Maybe this is an old idea, I've never seen anyone talk about it though so mentioning it here. 

At least, seems to me it'd be something worth trying anyways, no clue what Geotech is actually building though. But I'm calling that and he can read this and laugh. :biggrin:

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There are several ways to do a simultaneous VLF/PI. The method I did at White's is called truncated half-sine, I got a patent on it if you want the details. There are other time-domain TX waveforms that will give similar results. And there are other waveforms that are neither VLF nor PI, but perform as if they were both. At some point, we'll have to come up with new terminology for this. Probably someone's marketing dept will kindly step in and do that for us.

Modulating a sine wave on a pulse would make for a difficult TX circuit design but I'm sure it could be figured out. It reminded me that I was loosely involved with a third VLF/PI effort, a design that my book co-author had conjured up. He sent me a prototype (I still have it) and it worked, but had flaws. He figured out how to fix the flaws, but then never got the time to implement the fixes. I should call him.

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Right on, good to know there is some research and engineering going on here in the US. I have a soft spot for domestic detectors maybe in the way some people do for domestic automobiles. I hope you guys are brewing up some competition for big blue, would love to see the market get healthier.

And also, no matter what I think of, someone else already did before me. :biggrin: That why I am not an inventor.

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