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Steve Herschbach

Fors Gold, F75 & V3i Tone And Vdi Tidbits

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Snow on the ground so time for a little bench testing. Fisher F75 SE version 7.0A (2013) with 5" round DD coil, Nokta FORS Gold with 5" semi-round DD coil, and White's V3i with 4" x 6" DD coil.

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The table shows VDI numbers on some standard items. The little allen wrench is like a small nail - a ferrous item. The BIC ballpoint is my standard simulated small nugget. The ring is my 14K plain gold band, around 7 grams.

The VDI range on the Nokta runs from 1 - 99 with 40 and under generally ferrous. The F75 runs from 1 - 99 with 15 and under generally ferrous. The White's V3i runs from -95 to +95 with negative numbers generally ferrous. I say generally because in all three cases gold can run well into the ferrous range. Like by 10 - 20 VDI numbers into it!

A few big lessons. The Nokta FORS VDI 1 - 99 range is skewed with high conductors bunched on the high end of the scale with most of the scale devoted to ferrous and low conductive items. This is ideal for relic hunters and prospectors. Silver coin hunters however usually prefer the scale to devote more room on the high end to possibly get a better handle on what is silver and what is not.

The ferrous range of the Nokta actually runs all the way down into the ferrous ground range itself which is why there are 40 numbers devoted to it. The ID Mask setting defaults to 10 and if set lower allows ground signals to sound off. Since non-ferrous starts at 40 and I arbitrarily end low conductors at zinc penny on the upper end you have 40 - 82 or a spread of 42 points for low conductors. This really is no more than an average spread due to the large ferrous range.

What I was happy to see is the simulated nugget (BIC ballpoint) nailing at 44 as a non-ferrous target.

Contrast this to the F75 1 - 99 range. There are only 15 points in the ferrous range with the extreme low end represented on the Nokta scale truncated roughly in the middle. However, this leaves 16 up to 62 at zinc penny for a low conductor spread of 46 or slightly better than that on the Nokta FORS and leaves room for a little better definition for high conductive coins also. There is a ten point VDI spread between a dime and a quarter versus only 3 points on the Nokta.

What disturbs me on this particular F75 is that having tried multiple coils I am getting the same result on the simulated nugget test. It wants to nail at a solid 1 which is well under the ferrous 8 reading for the allen wrench. This is not shocking but it is not good either. I can get the ballpoint to break in at 16 occasionally but it should be there hard and solid, not rarely. I had Keith Southern test his updated F75 and it seems to do better. I need to test this again when and if I ever get an upgraded F75 but it does confirm my suspicion that at least some Fisher units are not properly aligned at this critical break point.

The White's V3i slays both of them with White's standard spread of 190 VDI points with half that devoted to ground and ferrous. A full 95 points is devoted to non-ferrous, giving a nice spread across the whole range. The V3i is a three frequency unit and the 22.5 kHz frequency employed allows it to easily nail the ballpoint test with a solid VDI of 3. White's even allows the 22.5 kHz frequency to use a native VDI range that skews and expands the low conductive range that delivers a VDI of 10 on the ballpoint, a very nice cushion between it and a ferrous reading. you have from 1 all the way up to 55 for zinc penny slightly beating both the Nokta and F75 for VDI resolution on low conductors and still room left for very good definition in the high conductor range.

These detectors can employ a dual tone mode that delivers a low tone on ferrous targets and a higher tone on non-ferrous targets. The break point on the Nokta and F75 is preset at the factory VDI breaks of 13 and 40. The V3i you can customize not only the VDI break point but the tones.

The F75 dual tone mode is pretty straight forward, with the volume being weaker or louder depending on the strength of the signal. In other words, a modulated audio. The Nokta Boost or DI2 mode uses a VCO (voltage controlled oscillator) audio where both volume and tone increases with signal strength. Anyone that uses a Fisher Gold Bug is familiar with VCO audio. It is rather unique and some people like it, others do not. Again, the V3i allows the tones to be customized any way you want, with either VCO, modulated, or even unmodulated options.

nokta-fors-target-vdi-table.jpg

makro-racer-nokta-fors-vdi-chart.jpg

Things get more interesting in Nokta DI3 or F75 three tone options. The low tone break for ferrous is the same but a third higher tone is added. On the Nokta zinc pennies and higher or from 80 on up delivers the third high tone. On the F75 it breaks above zinc penny so those pennies fall into the middle tone low conductive range.

Zinc penny is also where Indian head pennies and some other old coins can fall. If you hunt strictly by ear and dig high tones only you are going to pretty much dig all coins but nickels. With the F75 it is geared more towards silver hunters so zinc pennies, Indian heads and possibly other coins would get passed up as low conductors. But wait! The F75 also has a four tone option that puts that zinc range into into own fourth tone - problem fixed. You can chose a tone option that focuses more on silver only or one that breaks out that penny range. Jewelry Hunter would probably prefer the 3 tone mode and dig just mid-tones. The bottom line is the Fisher has more tone options for the coin hunters than what the FORS offers.

Of note is that the Nokta DI2 dual tone mode uses VCO audio, but the DI3 three tone option defaults to a more normal modulated audio. DI3 favors a faster sweep speed than DI2 which benefits from going slower. A generality would be that DI2 is more powerful but DI3 better behaved.

The V3i again is unchallenged. You can actually go so far as to independently set a separate tone for every single VDI number, and the tones can be any from 191 tone options. You can make low conductors high tone if you want. Absolutely nothing on the market compares to the V3i for audio and visual customization options.

Well, this all seems pretty easy, right? Just get the V3i and get on with business. Sadly, these are air tests. You might ask, for instance, which detector did best for "depth" in these air tests, as if there actually is such a thing. I only pay passing attention to that but the F75 seemed to be doing very well in that regard. Here is the problem with this entire lesson and all my typing. When you put things in the ground all these nice air tests rapidly decay and fall apart.

fisher-f75-vdi-chart.jpg

In very mild ground or on very shallow targets detectors can be amazing. In my ground unfortunately VDI numbers start breaking down at around 3-4 inches! What you discover is that if you get too focused on cherry picking VDI numbers good finds deplete rapidly. Almost all accessible public areas have been detected for decades. So the easy accurate VDI results have already all been cherry picked away. The best finds these days often come from digging targets that were passed up precisely because they did not give a perfect response.

In my opinion, these days we have to cast a wider net and be willing to dig more trash to make those exceptional finds. What that means is huge numbers of VDI numbers and tones although flashy and fun often is no better than just using a simple two or three tone method and going for it. Styles differ vastly and because really this is about enjoying ourselves there is no right or wrong way to do things - as long as you are enjoying yourself. For me, something simple like the Nokta DI3 tone option for digging all high conductor possible coin signals actually works pretty well in actual practice. If I want coins except nickels just dig high tones and have fun. The F75 allows a special mode that kicks nickels into the high tone range so you can do the same thing and get the nickels also if you choose. The V3i by now you should know the story - set it up any way you want.

Still, tests like these are very valuable to me in setting the baseline for performance in the field from which I can work to discover how much things vary and hopefully why. The theoretical goal if finding a machine that adheres as closely to bench testing results as possible in the field. Sometimes you get textbook results, but then at another location everything goes haywire. But unless you know where you are starting from you will have no idea what is going on.

I will sum this up for now by saying that the Nokta FORS is a machine that appeals to simplicity and leans towards relic hinting and prospecting. That is not to say you can't do well coin detecting with it, it is just that it is not set up with coin detecting specifically in mind. The F75 nicely straddles the middle for all detecting purposes.

whites-v3i-target-vdt-scale.jpg

The V3i is in theory the perfect detector but the reality is huge numbers of people have discovered more options does not always mean better detecting, and it is not unusual at all for people to abandon the V3i in favor of simpler machines. Unless you spend a vast amount of time with a V3i it is hard to feel like you have mastered the machine. The V3i appeals to my inner detector nerd but it is usually the case where in the field I prefer simpler machines myself. Still, I made the V3i part of all this just to see how it really does do if given a fair chance and at least when bench testing it is impressive to see all the bells and whistles in action.

This is all just stuff I am finding out for myself. I have no real reason in reporting it to you other than just to be sharing some info that is taking at least a little effort to collect. It helps me digest it better trying to put it clearly in a form you can better understand. Hopefully it will help someone in their own choice in a detector. As you may be figuring out if you have not already, there are no best VLF detectors, just lots of really different VLF detectors. They all actually do a good job finding stuff but it is in how they go about it that differs so much. It is mostly a case of finding out what style and type of detector works best for you.

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Steve,have you ever used a Sovereign? Specifically with a sunray meter.

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Closest I have come is the Excalibur which is a Sov in a tube but no meter.

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Steve, you should have moved to Fallon. We didn't get one flake of snow. And we are closer to Rye Patch. Goldbug Ron

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First of all,thank you for all the testing and very detailed reports you give us! I mean that..I got 2 late teen kids,wife,business,etc....so my detecting expenses are limited...if I want to stay married,lol.

I mention the Sov,because to this day I have never seen ,used or heard of a more accurate i.d. The tones are a thing of beauty,couple thatwith the sunray,and its accuracy is amazing...and stays that way at depth . I could pick out a wheaty next to a zinc, pick out an indian in a sea of garbage,etc. But the ergonomics sucked,and to do real well you have to swing so slow as to crawl. Ray

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Good news for me Ron is I need the downtime anyway!

Ray, that is my CTX 3030 except it is faster. It is not really getting involved much in my little testing game because I know it is not going anywhere. The Minelab multi-frequency detectors in my opinion get accurate VDI information as well and as deep as it can be had. The CTX has the extra benefit of being a great saltwater beach detector that can take a dunk without harm. Right now there are several detectors that are 100% going nowhere:

GPZ 7000 once I get one
ATX
SDC 2300
CTX 3030
Gold Bug 2

Number six is going to be a single frequency grab and go sniper unit with F75 and Gold Racer as top contenders followed by F19 and finally FORS Gold. Right now the FORS Gold is edging out the F75 even though I want the F75 to win! But it is not the latest greatest F75. All I want the Racer to do is at least equal the FORS Gold and then it will be ahead of the current F75 so it is all boiling down the newest F75 vs Gold Racer with possible F19 spoiler. The V3i I am afraid is not going to survive for just being too redundant but we will see. I am putting myself under needless pressure to weed things down to a minimum when I really do not have to. Periodically I get tired of the clutter and just want to clear house.

Sorting this stuff out and typing it down just gets it all clear in my head but I do hope it is of interest. It is a very, very personal quest and nobody should take it as meaning anything is better than anything else just based on my meanderings. I am just trying to get down to a solid core group that I will use exclusively going forward so as to gain that extra edge that comes with long term committed use. The new years resolution is to try and get down to six detectors max, and to never allow myself to get another one unless something else gets ditched. Time to focus like a laser on the detecting and quit screwing around with the hardware.

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Steve,

You wrote a book already! 

Just a few corrections regards the F75.....

F75 VDI range is 1 to 99.

F75 tone break for the 2 tone mode is at 15/16.  15 and under being ferrous low tone, 16 and up being the VCO tone.

The F75 manual regarding VDI ranges is a bit off on the high conductors.  Dimes and copper pennies are generally running 74,  Quarters are running 84ish.  Half dollars are running 89.  

One thing I'm starting to notice is the Fors CoRe /Racer ferrous range mimics the T2.   On the T2, 1-10 is also ground range.  Have you ever used a T2?  

Ray mentioned the Soveriegn, which is a great detector. Great Id because you could charge it up.  You wiggle over the target until the tones or VDI stopped moving.   But like he said, it is really slow.   Great detector for people with lots of detecting time, but for me it was a retired mans machine.  Lot of people got unhappy when Minelab discontinued it.

You said, "In my opinion, these days we have to cast a wider net and be willing to dig more trash to make those exceptional finds. What that means is huge numbers of VDI numbers and tones although flashy and fun often is no better than just using a simple two or three tone method and going for it.".

That is very true and another reason I am looking for a good visual representation of the signal.   I want to see the target response profile.  The exact reason I want the V3 for some of my turf sites. 

Isn't it funny how we agonize, research, buy and try, looking for that one or two detectors.  I think I'm crazy myself.  I find a instrument I really really like and the first thing I start doing is trying to figure out what could do it better.   Pure nutso crazy.  Better to use the ones you really like than to spend time and money hunting for something better all the time.   But I do it all the time and watch others do it too. 

HH
Mike

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Thanks Mike, I incorporated the corrections. That is what happens when I juggle too many numbers in a hurry. My air test results agree with your observation about the manual being off. Wonder if I should ditch the copy out of the manual so I as to not confuse people? I toss this stuff up then edit for a day or two. I am not sure if you have noticed but I leave posts open for revisions. I hate forums where I post something stupid or misspelled and can't go back and fix it. I figure if I feel that way others must also.

The V3i is an amazing machine. Like you I keep coming back to it just because of the wizardry of it all. There is no doubt the detector technology itself is fun, and a fascinating pursuit in itself. Either the learning of the machines, or the actual building of them for the techie types. It is distinct from actual detecting and few engineers actually metal detect. Detecting attracts people for all sorts of reasons beyond digging a penny!

Chris has a T2 and I gave it a swing this summer but only for a couple hours. I suspect the T2 operational design was the basis for the FORS design just as the Racer borrows heavily from the physical design of the T2. The FORS box bears obvious resemblances to the Minelab PI units. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery they say. Form also follows function. It is funny how my ATX rebuild is going to end up looking like a Minelab! Anyway, I wish the T2 retained settings when shut off, I might have one instead of the F75.

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