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Equinox Ferrous / Iron / Steel Responses


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11 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

Having said that, it seems that some here have a way of distinguishing between larger iron (which gives both high conductor signals and low conductor hints) and separate high conductor + nearby small iron.  If that can be done then your recommendation can be implemented.  Likely it depends upon the size of the objects and the separation distance, even with a trained ear.

 

3 hours ago, EL NINO77 said:

I also found some coins in the iron that I had a partial iron signal and ID 16,17 to 21,22 - but I decided to dig it after the first such digged coin - I'm more careful ...., and you can find me more and more this signal from the coin ...- I know one definitely need to feel more audio signal Equinox .

In determining if it's an iron false or a non-ferrous co-locate target the Nox has pushed this ability to new limits.

I have seen even broader spreads in the TID, going as high as the mid 30's  up averaging, usually on deeper targets  and down averaging of coins and coin size non-ferrous.

 

 

 

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I'm running the new version but I haven't really ran into any issues with it as of yet.  The only time I run into deep iron with the Nox is if I have hit a spell where I've not dug anything in a while

I wish the Equinox were magic on flat steel but it’s not - just witness the bottle cap complaints. Flat steel will generally ring up in the “teens” but the larger the piece is, the higher it can read.

What a great thread--lot of good information and practical test ideas.  My spin on the EQ's operating characteristic is this:  I get the sense that to "reign in" the info from all these fqs, some real

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4 hours ago, Jackpine said:

A couple quick questions for those that hunt older sites where numerous types and sizes of iron, steel and rusty tin are the masking culprits. 

Is the lack of an overload indicator on the Nox a positive thing for your hunting style?  In other words would it add or detract from your ability to discern co-located non-ferrous in heavily trashed areas?

I haven't noticed a difference for large targets that would overload other detectors (such as the Fisher F75).  Yes, for the Eqx you have to learn to recognize those large targets without an overload type response.  But after that does it help finding nearby small, non-ferrous?  I don't know.  In my experience you have to get very far away from the large (overload) target to find any meaningful signals, and that's the way it has been for my other detectors, too.

3 hours ago, Jackpine said:

I have seen even broader spreads in the TID, going as high as the mid 30's  up averaging, usually on deeper targets  and down averaging of coins and coin size non-ferrous.

Do you mean that the signal itself is broad -- covers broad range of TID's, or just that the actual signal for a known, consistent TID (for example, US dime) is shifted?  A dime shows up around 26 in clean ground.  If you see a (jumpy) 23 when iron is nearby you have to allow for the fact that it might be a partially masked dime?

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There is a lot of info coming through via audio in the Equinox, if a person chooses to utilize it.  I personally believe using anything other than 50 tones takes away the nuances of the audio.  You'll get a cleaner hit in the 2 or 5 tone options but you can't hear those nuances.  Somehow I think Minelab has this machine being able to determine that an object is an alloy, and can report the differences in the metal alloys.  I could be wrong, as I'm just guessing based on the signal I have gotten and what the object actually turned out being. I have no idea how many hours of use I have on the unit. I don't keep track of all that as it really doesn't matter.  If I'm in a site where I'm going to dig everything non ferrous, I will go to 2 tone and have clearer sounds on targets.  If I'm in trash and cherry picking, I'll be in 50 tone.

I have found something though that has came in with the Nox update.  My machine did not do this before with the old version.

I had some items laid out on a rubber stall mat doing a video between the Nox and Kruzer.  I happened to have the small coils on them and some pieces of flat iron, bottle caps, and a coin or two.  The target this happened on was a US silver quarter laying flat.  When I ran the coil over the quarter to show the difference in sounds....I didn't get a sound but maybe once out of 3 swings over the top of the quarter.  Very odd...I had to look and make sure I hadn't somehow discriminated out the quarter range, and I hadn't. 

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1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

Do you mean that the signal itself is broad -- covers broad range of TID's, or just that the actual signal for a known, consistent TID (for example, US dime) is shifted?

Yes, covers a broad range of TID's,  never seems to settle in a narrow range around the 26 of a typical dime no matter how well you center it and try different sweep angles. Seems to be when very close by to an obvious iron false where pinpointing can not hit the suspect target, always going to that falsing iron location. Probably a case where it is just barely seeing the signal as 2 targets one iron one non-ferrous.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Daniel Tn said:

I personally believe using anything other than 50 tones takes away the nuances of the audio.  You'll get a cleaner hit in the 2 or 5 tone options but you can't hear those nuances.

I've tried hunting in 50 tone but there's just too much information coming through for my brain to process.  However, hunting in 5 tones and then switching to 50 tones when I want to check out a target would probably work well for me.  I wish the user profile button were easier to access, though....

8 hours ago, Daniel Tn said:

Somehow I think Minelab has this machine being able to determine that an object is an alloy, and can report the differences in the metal alloys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy

An alloy is a combination of metals or of a metal and another element. Alloys are defined by a metallic bonding character.[1] An alloy may be a solid solution of metal elements (a single phase) or a mixture of metallic phases (two or more solutions).

Unfortunately I've seen confusion occasionally as to what an alloy actually is.  My simpler explanation than above is that alloys are metals which are mixed and uniformly distributed at the atomic level.  For example, US coin silver is 90% silver and 10% copper but the atoms of silver and copper are intermixed at the submicroscopic level.  Now what about a US clad coin?  That is a sandwich of a copper core and two outer layers of alloyed copper+nickel (same alloy as is used in US 5 cent coins).  It's not an alloy per se, but rather a macroscopic combination of two metals.  The European coins which have an inner disc surrounded by an outer ring are another example of a mixed metal object which isn't an alloy.

Let's say you have a steel (an alloy, BTW) screw with a brass (another alloy) washer and a stainless steel (yet another alloy) nut all fastened together.  The Equinox is capable of giving you signals for all three -- steel, brass, stainless -- when they are all connected together.  But if you have a silver coin it won't give you separate TID's for the copper part and the silver part of the alloy, but rather a single ID for that particular alloy.  (Of course we shouldn't forget that size also plays a roll in the TID, so a US silver quarter which is the exact same composition as the silver dime has a different TID.)  The bottom line is that the separation capabilities of the Eqx can sometimes distinguish different metals which are close to each other at the macroscopic level but not at the microscopic level (true alloy).

One last point which is interesting and which all US coin hunters are aware of: clad coins only give a single TID (for its size).  Even more puzzling (to me) is that it's the copper core which gives the TID, or at least the signal is consistent with that.  On the Eqx a US 'nickel' 5 cent (75% copper, 25% nickel) has a TID of 12-13.  The smaller clad dime (copper core, nickel outer layers with same composition as the US nickel) gives a TID around 26.  A US memorial penny pre-1982 (alloy of 95% copper, 5% zinc), which is slightly larger than the dime reads almost the same as the dime -- TID around 25-26.  So the detector appears to ignore the outer nickel-alloy layers of the clad dime and give a TID consistent with just the copper core.  (Likely what is going on is more complicated than what I just described.)  I've never found a European bi-metallic coin but from what I've read here it apparently also gives only a single TID (analogous to our US clad coins) as opposed to multiple TID's similar to the above example of screw+washer+nut.  So maybe the actual geometry matters?

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Great information coming from people putting the coil to the soil.

Jack..... some days back you said the Nox didnt have an overload....... well it sort of does.  page 25 of the manual in the beach section there is a beach OVERLOAD indicator which reduces transmit power so targets can still be detected without overload occurring.   Very few notice this .... slow moving vehicle like icon that pops up.   It will do it on cans and large iron as well.  

Rust is complicated and you have the break down of bleeding into the soil as well.   Those darn FLAT bottle caps at depth will register in the 8 and 10 digits as well.   Id give anything for a PP mode like the Xcal on this machine in the water...... just tell me its there and if i cant get a disc id but it repeats after a little sand is moved....... ill dig it every time.    Someone also said........ iron LIGHTS UP longer than non magnetic targets between send and receive.

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The main difference IMO in the alloy of a beer cap vs the alloy of say brass buckle, is the magnetic (ferrous) component of the beer cap.

Another situation is a lot of beer caps have aluminum liners about the shape of a dime. You can hit on that when the cap itself is almost rusted away, or when the cap is belly up with a fast detector.

An American clad coin has a true copper ring around the outside which evidently is the predominate characteristic masking the nickle center, vs the American nickle which is a true homogeneous alloy that has its number dragged down by the nickle (magnetic). If you flip the alloy around to be 75% nickle and 25% copper you might get a coin that sounds closer to a beer cap.

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8 minutes ago, phrunt said:

My understanding of that is if I'm getting a messy VDI on a target but a good strength signal I could switch to 5khz and perhaps get a better more stable accurate VDI number? would this be correct, or is multi IQ already sorting that out for me? 

 

It just depends on the situation Simon. In general I rely on Multi-IQ but in some instances a single frequency may be better. The article above was written before Multi-IQ was out, and with single frequency you lose the frequency comparison analysis going on in multifrequency. Multi-IQ works differently than the single frequency methods described in the article. The article I wanted to post because while we all talk about conductivity and magnetism, nobody has been talking inductance, and the article points out that it is inductance that fakes us out most of the time.

Who is Laurence, the guy who wrote the information in the post above (and below)? Dr. Laurence Stamatescu, Research & Development Manager at Minelab. University of Adelaide, PhD, Physics, 1993 – 1996.

Articles by Dr. Stamatescu (behind pay firewall)

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1 hour ago, Alluminati said:

An American clad coin has a true copper ring around the outside....

https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/what-are-clad-coins-768418

A clad coin is a coin that has multiple layers of metal in it; most current U.S. clad coins consist of an inner core of pure copper, with outer layers of a silver-colored nickel-copper alloy.

When you look at the edge of a clad coin you see a copper ring, but that is actually just the edge of a solid copper inner layer -- the core.  Think of three pancakes stacked on top of each other, the inner one being pure copper and the outer two being alloys of 75% copper and 25% nickel.

 

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