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Bad 2 Directional Falses After Upgrade With 6" Coil In Iron

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1 hour ago, amergin said:

 "please post your experiences here, if you've experienced bad 2 directional falses after upgrade with 6" coil in Iron

Amergin - I have some comment/questions on what you are calling "2 directional falses" but it has nothing to do with pre or post update.  Since post-upgrade experiences are all you want posted in this thread, then I will hold my tongue.  Let me know, however, if you want to talk about your setup (5 tones - wouldn't necessarily be my choice if falsing was an issue), what you consider a false, what other information you take into account when you hit a questionable signal (e.g., tonal quality not just tone, TID stability, etc.), how you interrogate the target (AM, pinpointer, hit it with single frequency, hit it with a disparate mode, etc.).   It is not JUST about high tones in two directions, that is really just scratching the surface and without the additional information I discussed above, not sure why ML would really bother with the report as is.  Not encouraged by their recommendation to just have you do a factory reset.  I would frankly be insulted if they told me to do that.  Finally, it is great you are tallying up all the positive and negative experiences, but DO take time to listen to what other people here are saying to you regarding your setup and don't dismiss those that are having success just because that experience does not match yours or contradicts your premise that the upgrade has made things significantly worse with the small coil. Not saying there isn't an issue, post update.  Let's be clear.  I just have not had enough experience side-by-side to say one way or the other.  I perceive there may be more "falsing" but I deal with it like any other falsing and make a dig decision accordingly at that moment in time..  What I do know is that is was not something that jumped out at me as a wow this is really something that has changed post update, until others mentioned it and I paid attention to it.  I've probably said too much, but just thought I would put that out there.  Cheers.

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5 hours ago, amergin said:

Congratulations, thats exactly how it worked for me before up dating Firmware, I was delighted that it did as promised and found items missed after multiple visits with different settings with my 11" coil,  As the focus of this discussion is seeing who has noticed a difference after firmware let me know if you up grade and see if it all changes, it appears some people are fine and some have really seen a difference, I will post comments from another forum also I know Calabash digger sold his due to the same problem I am having

 

Keep up the good work

 

Thanks for the redirection.

I come from the school of thought "If it ain't broke... don't fix it".  I don't intend on upgrading my firmware due to the success I am having with the original.  As others have suggested in this and MANY other thread and forums... if the new firmware doesn't do it for you... roll it back.  How many other machines give you the ability to tailor the machine programming to the type of hunting and ground/target conditions you have?  Not many, and I think that is pretty cool.  My opinion is the engineers at Minelab have already addressed this concern..  it is the original firmware.  

My apologies for posting off-topic, I have nothing more to add to this thread.  HH and good luck. ~Tim

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On 12/1/2018 at 12:29 PM, Chase Goldman said:

Amergin - I have some comment/questions on what you are calling "2 directional falses" but it has nothing to do with pre or post update.  Since post-upgrade experiences are all you want posted in this thread, then I will hold my tongue.  Let me know, however, if you want to talk about your setup (5 tones - wouldn't necessarily be my choice if falsing was an issue), what you consider a false, what other information you take into account when you hit a questionable signal (e.g., tonal quality not just tone, TID stability, etc.), how you interrogate the target (AM, pinpointer, hit it with single frequency, hit it with a disparate mode, etc.).   It is not JUST about high tones in two directions, that is really just scratching the surface and without the additional information I discussed above, not sure why ML would really bother with the report as is.  Not encouraged by their recommendation to just have you do a factory reset.  I would frankly be insulted if they told me to do that.  Finally, it is great you are tallying up all the positive and negative experiences, but DO take time to listen to what other people here are saying to you regarding your setup and don't dismiss those that are having success just because that experience does not match yours or contradicts your premise that the upgrade has made things significantly worse with the small coil. Not saying there isn't an issue, post update.  Let's be clear.  I just have not had enough experience side-by-side to say one way or the other.  I perceive there may be more "falsing" but I deal with it like any other falsing and make a dig decision accordingly at that moment in time..  What I do know is that is was not something that jumped out at me as a wow this is really something that has changed post update, until others mentioned it and I paid attention to it.  I've probably said too much, but just thought I would put that out there.  Cheers.

Thank you so much, I will gladly respond, your posts are always very in-depth and I learn a lot from them

here is my current set up

 am running Field 2, 5 tones , recovery speed 6/7, no iron bias and all metal on sens 20

I drop sensitivity to 15 and go over again

When referring Iron, I am talking about primally Nails at colonial cellar holes

when I get a good tone or VDI mixed with iron I interrogate changing to 5/10/15 khz, if the signal still holds hope, I test it in gold mode and pin pointer and watch the VDI and if positive number rings longer and consistent I dig,

I check consistency from multi direction with all of above

(for more and better information I do have to venture into 50 tones, but haven't  yet)

I have a lso tested some pointers i got from this discussion on  2 new nail invested sites i had searched before, but unfortunately  no encouraging news so far

I know it is site specific, and also depends of course on what is in the ground, but after the update it stop sifting through nails and finding items,

I am also aware it is no walk in the park and iron masking and metal detecting technology to-date is limited 

I had great success with coil at a the start, I could not believe how it delivered on hunted out sites exactly as promised, I had 2 sites I was working back over with 6" and each day on each site was better than the next, I did upgrade and  had about 30% left on  each of the 2 sites and BLANK, just sold nail signals, and an increase in large iron objects which was a good thing that included axes and colonial Cutlery etc. that did not ring previously.

I still take it out at every nail invested site  and Since upgrade had no success whatsoever cherry picking, it was as if part of the machine went missing. Rolling back seems the best solution, but finding a silver half dollar 1905 on edge at 16" on the side wall of the plug hole cant be ignored with my 11" on an area I had check 4 times before in both park and field mode

I posted on Treasurenet and did a search and noticed others where posting about the exact same issue, I have invited them to share there experiences on this forum , but the ignorance here has turned them off

I had to stop posting on this site because of the ignorance, and defensive tone from some users, if you read my responses I was very interested in what everybody had to say, I never disagreed with anybody just lost patience when people did not read my initial question and started ranting about other things ,  just got turned off when I was being attacked by people who did not want to accept Me and others where having genuine problem.

The engineers have taken a great interest in resolving this, despite what people said about how wrong it was to go to them, I have a  saying"the squeaky wheel gets the oil" I don't put anybody on a pedestal and if I am a paying customer I feel the right to point out flaws to make the experience better for all users, and will continue to do so. I don't care about there time being wasted, and they didn't neither, when I seen others experiencing the same issue, and not me alone it was time to report.

 I just want a better machine for us all , which is more important, rather than mulling around saying nothing and being miserable.

 As this is about a specific issue that I want to stay focused on

Moving forward I am not reading or responding to anything except good advice, and past experiences I can feed to engineers that don't involve ignorance or off topic nonsense

 

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On 12/1/2018 at 12:06 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

I have not even posted on this thread and still you take a swing at me? That’s ok Matt... my opinion of you is very low also, so the feeling is mutual. If you think problems get buried on this forum then your ignorance is on clear display. I would nuke threads like the one we are posting on if that were the case.

As far as never having a negative thing to say about Minelab...

Steve thank you for this forum, and all you insight, it is a great help

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Amergin.... I have devoted some time to this problem to test : On Park1, Park2, and Beach2: I have set the usable setting: 

On  coarse iron  ... you have to set the Iron Bias to a minimum of 7-8 to remove phantom tones .. and from the high recovery rate 6-7,8 settings, keep the separation acceptable to a small 6 "coil.

option1. Program Park1, sense 15_20, iron bias 7, recovery speed 6-7, discrimination accept -3do40,


option2.Program Park2, sens15-20, iron bias 7-8 .., recovery speed 6-7, discrimination accept -3do40 ..,


option3.program Beach2: sens 20-23, iron bias 7, recovery speed 6-7, discrimination accept -3 to 40 ...

December 1 Iphone 5S 2018 011_DxO.jpg

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On 12/4/2018 at 5:36 AM, amergin said:

Steve thank you for this forum, and all you insight, it is a great help

Hi amergin,

I have not weighed in on the subject simply because I use my small coil in different scenarios and am too busy now (and with frozen ground) to try my own experiments. I would also need another 6" coil to do the testing properly. Needless to say a thankless task so I will say thanks for your efforts in trying to pin this down. I would advise you to not totally discount those who say they are not having the issue because the settings people are using and such do matter. If people are not having the issue that is also important information if there is some difference in the settings that account for it. But simply saying there is no problem is not helpful. Anyway I do know it can be incredibly frustrating just figuring out if a problem is real, let alone coming up with a fix for it. Good luck! 👍

It’s in the scoop... can you see it?

equinox-minelab-finds-tiny-gold-nugget.j

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On 12/4/2018 at 10:54 AM, Chase Goldman said:

Amergin - have you rolled back and confirmed the sites are producing again?  That would basically be a confirmation of your theory.

Thats what others have done to great success, I have resisted on the principal that the manufacturer has to address it, but I want to find stuff so I plan to do it this weekend

 with current upgrade on Tuesday went back to my hunted out (11" coil) site and went over it using all the tips and tricks etc that this forum advised, with no luck.

this was one of the sites I mentioned earlier       "I did upgrade and  had about 30% left on  each of the 2 sites and BLANK, just sold nail signals,"

the next step is to roll back and do it again and see what it produces if it picks up where I left off prior to upgrade then it proves the problem exists,  my friend just did it and said 

"Yeah it was pretty bad. I would say ~75% of my high tones were iron in all shapes and sizes. I almost sold my 6" coil, but decided to try rolling the software back first. After that, the 6" works great."

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On 12/4/2018 at 11:51 AM, EL NINO77 said:

Amergin.... I have devoted some time to this problem to test : On Park1, Park2, and Beach2: I have set the usable setting: 

On  coarse iron  ... you have to set the Iron Bias to a minimum of 7-8 to remove phantom tones .. and from the high recovery rate 6-7,8 settings, keep the separation acceptable to a small 6 "coil.

option1. Program Park1, sense 15_20, iron bias 7, recovery speed 6-7, discrimination accept -3do40,


option2.Program Park2, sens15-20, iron bias 7-8 .., recovery speed 6-7, discrimination accept -3do40 ..,


option3.program Beach2: sens 20-23, iron bias 7, recovery speed 6-7, discrimination accept -3 to 40 ...

December 1 Iphone 5S 2018 011_DxO.jpg

Thank you so much for all this, a lot of time and work much appreciated

I will run each scenarios over the hunted out site and see what happens

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3 hours ago, amergin said:

Thats what others have done to great success, I have resisted on the principal that the manufacturer has to address it, but I want to find stuff so I plan to do it this weekend

 with current upgrade on Tuesday went back to my hunted out (11" coil) site and went over it using all the tips and tricks etc that this forum advised, with no luck.

this was one of the sites I mentioned earlier       "I did upgrade and  had about 30% left on  each of the 2 sites and BLANK, just sold nail signals,"

the next step is to roll back and do it again and see what it produces if it picks up where I left off prior to upgrade then it proves the problem exists,  my friend just did it and said 

"Yeah it was pretty bad. I would say ~75% of my high tones were iron in all shapes and sizes. I almost sold my 6" coil, but decided to try rolling the software back first. After that, the 6" works great."

Maybe ML can pull off a miracle here and thread the needle with additional tweaking, but if you have folks complaining that edge-on high conductors are not sounding off and IDing properly you might be stuck with more iron falsing as the side effect.  I was never a fan of minelab going in and messing with the SW for that very rare situation.  Iron falsing comes into play more often than enountering silver hoards or perfectly edge-on quarters at the surface.  Besides, it was proven that going to single frequency addressed the high conductor issue, so if you were paranoid you missed an edge-on quarter, you could just re-scan the site at 10 khz and you should be fine.  Ideally, if there was a way to punch up pre and post upgrade SW right on the unit without having to hook up to a computer, that would be awesome.  

Here's a link to a post  that Steve posted that shows how detector manufacturers use conductivity, conductance, and intrinsic magnetism to generate a Target ID and how overlaps at the fringes of these parameters can result in falsing depending on operating frequency, shape, and mass of the target.  It's amazing how accurate detector designers can get with Target ID considering all the variables that need to be managed.

And I know that I sound like a broken record, but if you crank up the Iron Bias to 7 to get rid of falsing as some have suggested, you are definitely going to miss iron masked non-ferrous targets that are in closer proximity to the iron than shown in El Nino's pic.  The way I look at it, if you remove an iron spike that is falsing, that is just one more mask out of the way of a deeper non-ferrous keeper.  If you never hear it with iron bias, the nail stays in the ground and so does the keeper.  Another way to look at "dig it all" simply means that you are digging "certain" iron or non-ferrous junk up and getting it out of the way to unmask the keepers.  Dig it all does not necessarily just mean you are digging it because the detector hits and you are not sure what it is.

Anyway, can't wait to hear back on how it goes with the roll back at your problem site.

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